| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 5 hours ago |
| Reminds me of the old joke "90% of the code is 90% of the work. The last 10% of the code is the other 90% of the work." I have spent almost my entire adult life (since 1986) shipping products. One of the very first things that I learned, was that "shipping" > "designing". There's so much work in delivering products that will carry your brand, and then must be supported. I liken it to having children. Conceiving them is fun. Delivering them is painful. Raising them, is a lifetime of work. In my experience, the same type of thing applies to products that we ship (and charge money for). |
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| ▲ | hintymad 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > There's so much work in delivering products that will carry your brand, and then must be supported. People think otherwise with AI partly because Anthropic kept telling us that they didn't have to write code or review code any more for most of their work. Their agent swarms just comb through their github, slack and wikis to figure out what to do next, and another swarm of agents just review, test, merge, deploy, A/B test, and revert the code. Boris alone merged nearly 300 PRs in the past week (or two?). So the top research labs seem have broken the productivity seal. And then they talk about this recursively self-improving AI that is so powerful, so autonomous that they advocate that every company should be prepared to "pause" the effort. And their Fable/Mythos has this specific restriction as mentioned in their model card[1] that they are going to reject requests to tune and train models because, well you guess it, the models are too powerful to be used by mere mortals. [1] We’ve implemented new interventions that limit Claude’s effectiveness for requests targeting frontier LLM development (for example, on building pretraining pipelines, distributed training infrastructure, or ML accelerator design). Using Claude to develop competing models already violates our Terms of Service, but enforcing this restriction through our safeguards avoids accelerating the actors most willing to violate these terms. Unlike our interventions for cybersecurity, biology and chemistry, and distillation attempts, these safeguards will not be visible to the user. Fable 5 will not fall back to a different model. Instead, the safeguards will limit effectiveness through methods such as prompt modification, steering vectors, or parameter-efficient fine-tuning (PEFT). |
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| ▲ | californical 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > the safeguards will limit effectiveness through methods such as prompt modification, steering vectors, or parameter-efficient fine-tuning (PEFT) Holy crap that is dark. I like learning about ML for fun, and now I have to assume that their model is intentionally misinforming me to sabotage my learning? It is absolutely bananas that somebody decided that was ok behavior. | | | |
| ▲ | elzbardico an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Anthropic is full of shit. |
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| ▲ | socketcluster 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fully agree. Shipping a complete product with a functioning user acquisition funnel is much harder. It's like; you have to build the whole product first with lots of features and then you have to try to create a highly condensed overview of all those features to expose them all on the landing page. If you can't make the visitor understand your entire complex product in 10 seconds, then you've lost them. Your product has to be complex because that's where the software market is at. All of the low-hanging fruits have been taken by the time you identify them. Sure, someone will find a way to make money using new low-hanging fruits that arise due to technological changes but it's not going to be you. You probably don't have the business connections to make that work. |
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| ▲ | cornholio 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not entirely sure how that dismisses the CEO's putative argument: they go big on AI precisely because shipping end-to-end is hard, so they think they shouldn't waste resources on tasks that can be automated. The structure of a good argument would be something like: certain tasks are fundamentally human and impossible to automate (which and why?) and by pushing AI use beyond what is optimal you are actually hurting your employees ability to do those hard parts. A weaker but still useful argument is that most everything can probably be automated, but frontier models aren't there yet. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wouldn't say it "dismisses" their argument, but I think AI marketing encourages them to take an over-simplified view of what it takes to ship product. Most folks like a good, simple story, as opposed to the unvarnished truth. > "There's always an easy solution to every human problem; Neat, plausible and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken It's like the classic scenario, where you lash-up a barely functional UI demo, and the manager cuts your development schedule by 90%, because you "already have it working." That taught me to never do a lash-up demo. If I show something to someone, it is ship-quality (but often incomplete). It's a technique that I've used for years, and is a great way to involve nontechnical stakeholders, without risking stuff like "it's already working." All that said, I think that AI definitely could automate a lot of the repetitive stuff involved in shipping. It's just that the CEO would fire the folks that could teach it, before it can learn, because they think that what they do, is "unimportant." |
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| ▲ | tauserfunnel 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I hate to use a throwaway, but this bit: > with a functioning user acquisition funnel How do you actually get this. I've got a product, the site is hand crafted, shows the complex product really well (and had good feedback on it) but how do I acquire the users? It seems as the cost of creating software has plummeted, it's the actual sales side of it that's going to matter even more. I'm stuck at this point. | | |
| ▲ | mjr00 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "How do I acquire users" is the entire function of sales and marketing. A single HN comment explaining how to do sales and marketing, which is highly dependent on your product and market (and much more difficult than technical people tend to believe), is a bit unrealistic. And a great opportunity to use Claude/ChatGPT for something other than code. There's no silver bullet but as a springboard you can think about: Who is your ideal customer profile (look up buyer personas) -- if you're B2B figure out both the profile of the company who would buy, as well as the person who would actually buy, and the person who would actually use the software: remember that buyer != user in B2B scenarios, and you'll have to figure out if the buyer, user or both is the best path to getting a sale. If you're B2C figure out your buyer personas so you know where to advertise. Why would people want your product; sounds like you may already have this down but be ready to explain your value proposition concisely. How will these people hear about your product -- a SaaS that falls in the woods doesn't make a sound, you need people to learn your product exists before they can pay for it. This is the point of figuring out buyer personas, you need to meet your customers where they are, and you can't know where they are unless you know who they are. This is highly dependent on your product/personas, and could range from running LinkedIn ads to SEO to having a Bluesky brand account to going to local meetup groups or conferences and trying to get your first handful of users in-person. | |
| ▲ | brianwawok 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Get a dozen users word of mouth? They will tell friends? Won’t scale forever but it gets you going. | |
| ▲ | newsicanuse 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sorry to burst your bubble but the cost of creating software has not, bloatware definitely has. |
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| ▲ | pknomad 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like this analogy; raising children well like delivering products well pays dividends. They’re less likely to cause problems and if they do, they tend to be smaller in scope. |
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| ▲ | newsicanuse 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Great analogy all the way through. Also the last 10% takes thre most effort/iteration to get the work done such that you don't spend a lot of time maintaining it later. |
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| ▲ | dieselgate 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > 90% of the code is 90% of the work. The last 10% of the code is the other 90% of the work. Don't think I've heard that one but certainly rings true to my experience. Reminds me of "ninety percent of the game is half mental" |
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| ▲ | radley 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've heard it as "once you think you're 90% done, you're really halfway done." Tangential: it's always made me wonder about teams that believe "80% effort" is optimal. |
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| ▲ | Yokohiii an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I liken it to having children. Conceiving them is fun. Delivering them is painful. Raising them, is a lifetime of work. I am not a children person. But I love this analogy. To deliver something nice, we also must accept some suffering. |
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| ▲ | stasomatic 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I skimmed the article, guilty, but I think what I got from it is that CEOs will CEO? No disrespect meant, I’ve seen your name here often and thoroughly enjoy the folklore that you share, but I don’t understand what context you reacted to. Cheers. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The context that they think that shipping is simple. Shipping (what you need all those annoying peons for) is really terribly difficult, and has a lot of moving parts that designers often fail to take into account, until the deployment people lock them into a restroom stall, and refuse to let them out, unless they listen. That's common with newer engineers (and now, non-engineers). I believe that Mr. Dunning, and Mr. Kruger had something to say about it. I also spent most of my career at hardware-oriented companies, and shipping hardware is orders of magnitude more difficult than shipping software. | | |
| ▲ | stasomatic 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thank you. You spent some time at Apple, no? There is that “real artists ship” or “great artists steal”, but I wonder what he’d say now. Just fun to think about. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not as an employee, but I've been an Apple developer since '86. Had fairly intimate relationships with them, at various points in my career. |
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| ▲ | mullingitover 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Conceiving them is fun. Delivering them is painful. Raising them, is a lifetime of work. Then there's the technical debt! Shipping is frankly the easy part. It's the operating overhead that often breaks you. I liken it to free puppies. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is true. I have always prided myself on writing concise, high-Quality code, because it tends to be quite debt-free. So far, LLMs seem to deliver code with "Louie Da Loan Shark"-levels of tech debt. | | |
| ▲ | mullingitover 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem is that the lines of code are riding on a stack of other dependencies that all need care and feeding. Things reach EOL. Frameworks have major breaking changes. CVEs are discovered. | |
| ▲ | bluefirebrand 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You mentioned in another part of this thread that you worked in hardware mostly? It seems like the cost of changing hardware code is high enough to still insist on building it high quality, is that accurate? | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yes. It's also why working as a software (host) developer at a hardware company is difficult. Hardware people insist on treating software the same as firmware. Bad firmware can cause real-world, physical damage, and be impossible to fix without a hardware recall. A firmware bug can wipe out a hardware company. A software bug can be embarassing, but can also be corrected a lot more easily (as long as it is being treated differently from firmware). |
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| ▲ | KerrAvon 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can actually get high-quality code out of them -- at least with Claude; not had a great experience with Gemini -- but for complex tasks requires riding them very, very hard and really understanding where things can go wrong and poking at them repeatedly. Iterate, iterate, iterate. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Iterate, iterate, iterate. That describes my last week. What made it most annoying, was the need to release through TestFlight, because the memory issues would not appear, when tethered. Also, I was checking in constantly, because I had to revert and reset the context, several times. |
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| ▲ | lokar 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Every line of code is a liability | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yup. In another post, I was grumping about having to accept a truly obese bunch of code from an LLM. This particular issue is the only one I could imagine even considering accepting that much pasta, but I sort of have to, because the LLM was able to quickly solve a problem that would have taken me a couple more weeks to address. I remember a .sig that went something along the lines of: I hate code, and want as little as possible in my software.
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| ▲ | strangattractor 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| %80 of CEOs are Meh. %10 of the CEOs add value to the company. %10 of the CEOs are actually detrimental. The %80 will always try and do what they think the top %10 CEOs do because of FOMO. The bottom %10 will do it because they know their days are numbered and hope that it might put them in the %80 keeping their jobs. A good LLM could probably replace most and not do any worse. Good CEOs don't see their employees as an expense. |
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| ▲ | fuzzfactor 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Those percent estimates look about right :0 Good CEO's make such good money on their employees that everybody gets raises and bonuses, the company grows responsibly, and the stock is a good investment. Too bad it's out of reach for so many executives. If that's too challenging, I understand, but if they had real confidence as a business operator I don't see why so many would be kicking out anybody over AI when they could at least continue to make the same money off the same people going forward. OTOH in cases where AI is almost ideally helpful it should be no surprise if hiring is slowed, and doing the accounting it could very well add up about the same either way. But one way clearly indicates the limited vision of a lesser leader, why settle for that? Two of the most macro giveaway characteristics are emotionalism and superstition. Not just for CEO's and other executives, but anyone in a leadership position or with decision-making tasks to perform. One of the legendary combinations is when superstition is used in place of technology, and emotional reactions completely prevail instead of genuine business acumen. It's a pretty good estimate that almost every CEO who thinks it would be good if AI replaced their employees, that these CEO's fit squarely in the superstitious camp. I would say that's just one growing subset of a much larger smorgasbord of superstitions to choose from, and some big-shots are bound to indulge a whole lot more than others :\ |
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| ▲ | aplomb1026 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | ofModel35ba3b 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | himata4113 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| now it's closer to 95% of work can be done by AI and requires 5% mental effort, but 5% of the work requires 95% of the mental effort to finish because of all the unoptimial decisions AI has taken. I find that AI works best in small micro-service type architecture where each component has a clear goal and doesn't have interconnected parts within the same application that can break. But you do run into an issue where changes in microservice a need changes in microservice b and updating it is not ideal since it usually cascades thru the entire system or requires stacks of legacy support. |
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| ▲ | lokar 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | IME it’s possible to have good clear APIs, limited scopes/goals, etc in a normal (macro?) service. But it requires a level of discipline and process many teams are unwilling to engage in. |
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