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amunozo 3 hours ago

These price and speed optimization from Chinese providers, combined with the raising prices from American ones will change the game sooner than later. Many companies are finding issues with the AI bills already.

MangoCoffee 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Chinese model is good enough and cheap.

i've a Github copilot yearly subscription. Microsoft recently changed their billing to based on token. i'm still getting billed per premium request but GPT 5.4 is now 6x compare to 1x before.

reactordev an hour ago | parent [-]

It's going to be an issue when China ends up scaling faster as well. Faster tokens, faster clusters, qat models, fp4, it's getting scary.

AndrewKemendo 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

Issue for who?

throwa356262 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

For uncle Sam Altman.

reactordev 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

American Politics and the far right.

ilaksh an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm kind of poor so I have been trying to use DeepSeek v4 Flash, GLM 5.1 etc. as much as possible recently instead of Claude or GPT.

petesergeant 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

You would do us all a service by telling us how your experiences of that have been.

varispeed 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see bigger problem with model inconsistency. You never know whether Anthropic will route your request to a cheaper model for the price of Opus. So you can never estimate how much a task will cost, because you might have to restart several times and pay for each attempt. Then you have to prompt models to gauge whether they are real or impostors which also adds to token usage.

ignoramous 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> You never know whether Anthropic will route your request to a cheaper model for the price of Opus

For non subsidized plans? Pretty sure they'd need to put this in ToS, or law suites would have followed by now.

trollbridge 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How can you prove it?

Sometimes Opus just gives me a rubbish session.

sometimelurker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

no they 100% use MTP with a cheaper model alongside opus, and it would infact be unprovable if they just sometimes switched to auto-accepting everything from the MTP. its true that if they did anthropic would need to hide that they do this, so its probably not a huge deal

kypro 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Another problem is that US models are all closed source, and if you're a large corporate you may not want your org to be held hostage by OpenAI / Anthropic.

I genuinely don't understand what moat these US model labs have. If they're saying recursive self improvement is just around the corner and Chinese labs are only slightly behind the leading US models, what moat does the US labs have? Are the US models going to recursively self improve better than the Chinese open source ones or something?

I might be completely wrong about this, but if I had money in OpenAI or Anthropic I'd be pulling it all right now. I think the chance of them going to near-zero over the next few years is very significant.

lokar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Their moat is cash to pay politicians to regulate away competition.

hobofan an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> you may not want your org to be held hostage by OpenAI / Anthropic

Or Google. I'm working with multiple customers right now that are very pissed at Google for deprecating Gemini 2.5 Flash, canning the GA release of 3.0 Flash and now have to decide whether to bite the bullet of the 5x price increase for 3.5 Flash or switching providers. Quite a few of them will likely fully pivot to open models.

bachmeier 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'd be curious if any of your customers have tried 3.1 Flash Lite. It's cheaper than 2.5 Flash, and in my experience with the free tier, quite an upgrade in terms of quality of response. My suspicion is that Google is killing off the old models because they aren't a good value for the customer or for themselves.

ChrisClark an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I think they are racing because the first ASI will 'win', preventing others, of course we won't be able to bake the right goals into it though.

tancop 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

i dont think its going to automatically prevent others. super claude might understand why diversity is important. if were talking sci fi scenarios the most likely one is probably overwatch (multiple independent ais with gray ethics and complicated relationships) more than skynet.

throwaway894345 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I wonder what are the economics driving these pricing decisions? Are the Chinese companies just subsidizing their models to a greater degree than the US, or is this an emergent property of energy policy between countries?

Octoth0rpe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Throwing out another factor: Chinese companies have been banned and/or limited from buying nvidia, and turned to local companies for their hardware. I haven't actually seen pricing/benchmarks comparing Chinese AI accelerators, but it wouldn't surprise me if that also worked out in their favor as well.

lokar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And, possibly, state subsidies at every level.

throwaway67678 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Lower cost of labor, lots of under the hood optimizations (e.g. cache hits for DS), many of these companies have existing infra (fewer upfront costs for deployment), etc

ecshafer 2 hours ago | parent [-]

China isn't that cheap for labor. And if you think the guys in Z.ai or xiaoxiao aren't the exact same guys from Tsinghua, Peking, MIT, Stanford, CMU, etc. and pulling in amazing salaries you'd be wrong.

throwaway67678 an hour ago | parent [-]

I'd assume there's more to the cost of labor than the salaries of the elite folks who do the R&D, but fair point

orphea 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe not being led by a sociopath also helps.