> chronically adverse culture

That's the thing. On a bike you can do everything right and still lose.

California is one of the safer places to ride given how many bikes are here and I've still had too many near misses as a trained, experienced, and conservative rider.

Most people put 1-2k miles a year on their bikes, when I was riding often I put on 2-3k/ month.

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coldtea 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>That's the thing. On a bike you can do everything right and still lose.

Same with anything in life.

Same with a car, just less so. Of course you could also stay at home, wearing protective bumper suit 24/7 (and can still die from any number of things anyway).

At some point there's a tradeoff people make. Some people make it where the tradeoff slider says "motorcycle", rather than stop at "car". And I'm not talking a tiny niche, but about 1-1.2 billion people globally.

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Falimonda 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The risk is much much much higher with a motorcycle - especially in the US where most car drivers have next to zero experience sharing the road with motorcycles let alone driving a motorcycle. Saying it's the same thing is absurd here.

- Licensed motorcycle driver

	▲	mothballed 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Vs what though? We're talking about a felon and addict channeling their risk-taking energy. I rode motorcycles exclusively as my transport in my 20s and it was one of the main things that checked use of intoxicants. You need your balance for a motorcycle and it uses the same risk-taking energy that many people would otherwise channel into drugs and destruction. That is to say, those comparing car v motorcycle are doing the wrong comparison here. You'd be evaluating (car + substitute activity of drugs/crime/etc) vs. motorcycle -- rather than merely car v motorcycles.

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paulryanrogers 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Same with a car, just less so.

So not the same?

> Of course you could also stay at home, wearing protective bumper suit 24/7

Quite an extreme and useless comparison. There's a large spectrum of transportation and entertainment options between motorcycle riding and home bound bumper suit at all times.

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estearum 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah exactly, same with BASE jumping or wingsuiting.

It's the same risk dynamic as driving a car to work, just more so. Of course you could also stay at home, wearing protective bumper suit 24/7 (and can still die from any number of things anyway).

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embedding-shape 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That's the thing. On a bike you can do everything right and still lose.

Same with a car, or anything really.

The point of parent stands, globally there are billions of people going through their lives with motorcycles as their main vehicles, yet aren't involved in any life-changing accidents.

Some places are more dangerous than others, probably places that doesn't have this already motorcycle-heavy culture, like other countries in the world, has a higher incident rate and more severe accidents, as drivers aren't aware of how motorcycles usually operate.

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qmr 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Please don't say accident when you really mean crash.

Promote language of responsibility and accountability.

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embedding-shape 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Most crashes, but not all, are accidents. I think I'm talking about accidents, not crashes.

	▲	qmr an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Someone is always at fault. Look into auto lobby and this "accident" term history. Use the language of accountability.

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robobro 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I live in Indonesia. We have the highest per-capita rate of bike ownership in the world.

I have seen what happens to motorcycle riders when there are accidents and I have seen what happens to car drivers when there are accidents. I won't get into the gory details but I avoid using bikes as much as possible.

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embedding-shape 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And I've seen what happens when pedestrians get hit by a car going way too fast, it sucks, and is horrible, but also besides the point. Not to say one has worse/better accidents, motorcycles accidents obviously has a much higher fatality and serious injuries risk, hard to deny.

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ProllyInfamous 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>but also besides the point.

Hard disagree.

Both pedestrians and motorcyclists are raw to the elements, entirely. At least when on roadways an automobile provides a chassis/rollcage.

	▲	qmr an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		When vulnerable road users are killed in other countries there is strict liability. That is, the driver is assumed at fault unless proven otherwise. In America it's the perfect crime. "I'm so sorry officer I never saw them." Case closed Lou.
	▲	embedding-shape 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		You disagree with me agreeing with what you just wrote about it being more dangerous to go with motorcycles? The "besides the point" is that the point I was raising was how common motorcycles are, globally. Is that what you're disagreeing with?

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qmr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Crashes. Not accidents.

	▲	coldtea 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Accidents. Not everything is under the driver's control, nor does it happen due to their intention (or even necessarily due to their lack of attention or whatever). There's a reason the term accident is used (I know at least 10 countries where the meaning is the same).

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stickfigure 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Get a dirt bike. 10X more fun than street riding and much safer.