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embedding-shape 3 hours ago

> “They physically grabbed us, forced us out of the conference center, and now are telling us we can no longer attend this meeting,” Kelly told MedPage Today, which first reported the incident. “They’re taking our lanyards. It really has come to this in America. Censorship is real. America needs to stand up. Scientists, stand up. Physicians, stand up.”

It's become very evident from the outside that the best time to stand up was yesterday, and you might already be too far down the slope to be able to quickly recover for this. I really do feel for all Americans who just want to have a normal life with an average quality of life or above, but at one point the environment around you change so quickly that that stops being even a possibility in the future. If your life hasn't been affected yet, it will be shortly.

The best day to stand up against the ongoing censorship and repression might have been yesterday, but the second-best day to do so is today. You really need to start caring about this before it's way to late. One "no kings protest" every 6 months is not gonna do anything, what you need is wide solidarity across industries, and a real general strike across the country. The second you do this, you'll see that the many and poor can control the few and rich.

roenxi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This might be reading too much in to minor drama at a diabetes conference. The gentleman in question could have gone to protest outside (and probably did).

The article linked doesn't even say what exactly they were protesting (beyond a rather vague "attacks on scientific research" which could mean a lot of things).

adrian_b 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Their so-called "protest" was just distributing an article already published in the journal of the medical association to which this conference is attached, which probably discussed matters of interest for the attendance, like the future of research financing in this domain.

I can hardly think of a more peaceful form of protest, which only intended to make aware the participants about the content of the article. Those who were not interested presumably refused to take the article copy or did not read it.

Even on HN you can still see claims that USA is a "free" country where anyone can say anything about the government, without consequences. This example shows clearly that this claim is false.

zdragnar 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

He wasn't thrown in jail, the organizers of a private event removed him. This has nothing to do whatsoever with free speech. I'd expect better from a middle school debate team than this sophistry.

JumpCrisscross 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> This has nothing to do whatsoever with free speech

Freedom of speech is a philosophical concept broader than the First Amendment.

The conference organizers broke their own code of conduct to censor this article’s distribution. That violates principles of free speech. If they did it at the behest of a government official, that would be a First Amendment issue. We don’t have any evidence of that right now, but it isn’t a question which has been seriously investigated yet.

noelsusman 7 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

They removed him due to fear of reprisal from the federal government. How could that have nothing to do with free speech?

roenxi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm no doctor, but I suspect the conference organisers wanted the conference to focus on diabetes. Rather than exploring whether the USA is a "free" country where anyone can say anything about the government, without consequences.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> suspect the conference organisers wanted the conference to focus on diabetes

The article they were distributing is pretty clearly about diabetes. If the actions it describes continues, significant efforts towards treating and even curing diabetes will be lost.

ciupicri 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Just a year ago, in these very pages, we highlighted the many threats the current U.S. administration posed to the health of our nation (1). Since then, there have been actions by the administration that have caused grave health consequences, and their current approach will continue to do so.

It sounds to me like criticism of the government.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> sounds to me like criticism of the government

The article is not a long read [1]. It describes how current policy is dismantling and destroying the research infrastructure for diabetes, infrastructure which has started or has already borne significant fruit. It encapsulates a criticism of the administration, and it’s definitely scathing, but it’s far from a partisan rant.

For example: “This CD3-directed monoclonal antibody has been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to prevent type 1 diabetes in people aged 8 years and older with stage 2 type 1 diabetes. As a result, we are a major step closer to a cure for type 1 diabetes. With the potential to prevent the disease, screening programs for type 1 diabetes are being initiated worldwide.

Two examples are the Human Islet Research Network (HIRN) and the Integrated Islet Distribution Program (IIDP). HIRN aims to advance our understanding of how β-cells are lost in human type 1 diabetes and to find inventive strategies to protect or replace β-cells in people with the disease.”

The funding for that research is being cut. If you have a loved one with or at risk of getting diabetes, this could be the difference between vastly different levels of quality of life and years of life versus death.

[1] https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/49/6/901/164764/Mi...

roenxi an hour ago | parent [-]

> The funding for that research is being cut. If you have a loved one with, or at risk of getting, diabetes, this could be the difference between vastly different levels of quality of life and years of life versus death.

So just to jump back to the "The article they were distributing is pretty clearly about diabetes" thing mere comments ago - this seems to be about budgets and administrative matters. Those are generic concerns. In fact, in my unhumble opinion, this looks a lot like the sort of document written by someone with poor marketing skills worried that their budget is going to get cut in the near future. Especially since the conference organisers didn't think there was special merit to it.

There isn't much (if any) research here. It can reasonably be said to be out of scope for a diabetes conference if the organisers don't want to include it. All of us would like a larger budget, we don't need to listen to other people present on the topic of how they also want larger budgets. That is a political topic.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> It can reasonably be said to be out of scope for a diabetes conference if the organisers don't want to include it

I’d agree with you if this happened at the journal level. It didn’t. The journal published it. Like, an astronomical conference paper describing why a new telescope design is a waste of money isn’t basic research, but it’s absolutely topical. (It could also reasonably be branded as political.)

The article is about the research infrastructure supporting diabetes research. If diabetes researchers aren’t allowed to comment on whether diabetes funding is working or wasteful in their own journals, or present their published journal findings at their own conferences, you’re not going to get any basic diabetes research.

> we don't need to listen to other people present on the topic of how they also want larger budgets. That is a political topic

It is. It’s also about diabetes. Debating which research avenues are more promising than others is absolutely political. It’s also at the heart of science. And frankly, informing fellow researchers and policymakers of the boring parts of the science is part of a scientist’s job.

Also, importantly, they aren’t asking for more budget in the article. They’re pointing out that the appropriated funds aren’t being delivered. They’re being literally misappropriated by OMB and HHS.

roenxi 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

I mean, so the concern here is what - HN disagrees with a decision made by an ADA organiser at a conference related to whether budgets and administration is appropriate in conference scope?

They got to have their say. Editorial published, made international news. I imagine all the conference attendees read it if they cared. Seems like a non-issue. Can we find a real problem for me to read up on instead? I'm having fun I suppose but I'm not seeing why we need to be all up in their business.

I bet less than 10% of the HN people who read the article even get to the "Misguided Brushes of a Pen..." editorial to find out what their complaint is.

JumpCrisscross 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

> the concern here is what

ADA is violating its own code of conduct to suppress an article that calls out potentially-illegal misappropriation of diabetes-research funding by OMB and HHS, funding which falls in a results-oriented tradition and/or cuts off strong candidates for future therapies.

> Seems like a non-issue

Half of the front page usually is. You’re engaging with this content, so there is clearly something going on.

Personally, I flagged excerpts of the article to one of my Senator’s staffers. They weren’t aware of it, and will be surfacing the article to their boss, a doctor, tomorrow. If HHS is fucking around with Congressional appropriations on a healthcare issue germane to our state, they probably shouldn’t have gone out of their way to draw attention to it during an appropriation cycle.

tremon 30 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

It can reasonably be said to be out of scope for a diabetes conference if the organisers don't want to include it

So the organisers of a conference can control the topics that its attendees want to talk about in the hallways of the venue? They don't have to extend any agency to the attendees, they're just dumb consumers here?

throwaway173738 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are you against criticism of the government by private organizations?

wyldfire an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not like the article is indirectly related to the subject of the conference. It is critical of the government, but not in the "human rights abuses of this administration threaten us all" way (though even that seems reasonable to discuss).

Is it your position that if an article is critical of a world government it must not be discussed at a scientific conference? Or even "you should expect to get ejected from a conference if you criticize the host government"? Because believe it or not, that's not been a problem in the USA prior to Trump. And it runs contrary to how science should work.

ciupicri 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

If Adria Richards and PyCon can make a such fuss about a joke [1], then other conferences can do the same about current political events. I personally wouldn't mind or better said I wouldn't be offended because the topic might be boring for me.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donglegate

skywhopper an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If the government is actively working against diabetes research, then there is no way to say that without “criticizing” the government.

brookst an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It was criticizing systematic anti-science decisions which lead to bad outcomes for diabetes research, and ultimately those with diabetes.

The idea that a science based defense of science is anti-government and therefore off limits for a conference is downright Soviet.

wyldfire an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of science's most critical roles is to inform policymakers. And if they can't do that job effectively then it's right and just to point out the problems preventing it. Scientific conferences that fear critiques of the government chill new scientific publications.

It's not like they were handing out "Trump sleeps during press events" posters. You should read the article they distributed, it's very relevant to the conference attendees.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-]

> One of science's most critical roles is to inform policymakers

Yup. From their article: “DCCT/EDIC revolutionized the approach to treating people with type 1 diabetes, establishing standards for glucose control and resulting in improved quality of life along with clinically significant reductions in the risk of diabetes complications and major adverse cardiovascular events.

After 44 years, it continues to provide new insights, including showing that in adults with type 1 diabetes, neurodegeneration is likely the result of non–Alzheimer disease mechanisms. DPP/DPPOS, which enrolled people with prediabetes, demonstrated the benefit of intensive lifestyle intervention and metformin in reducing the risk of developing diabetes. These findings led Congress to approve an amendment to the Social Security Act to establish the Medicare Diabetes Prevention Program and provide lifestyle intervention services for eligible individuals.”

skywhopper an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, but this detail is crucial to continuing to make progress on diabetes treatment and research. So it’s actually more fundamental than anything else.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This might be reading too much in to minor drama at a diabetes conference.

Indeed, my view and perspective is built by a culmination of recent events, not based on a single event. The widespread self-censorship Americans currently engage in (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48434091) is also a large part of it.

I don't have any "index of events" handy that could explain why I think the slope is so evident currently, but based on the ongoing journalistic suppression, individual self-censorship, centralization of control and power in governments and society together with lots of other smaller incidents like this one and others, makes it pretty clear to me at least.

st-keller 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“When Fascism came into power, most people were unprepared, both theoretically and practically. They were unable to believe that man could exhibit such propensities for evil, such lust for power, such disregard for the rights of the weak, or such yearning for submission. Only a few had been aware of the rumbling of the volcano preceding the outbreak.”

— Erich Fromm, Escape from Freedom

joemazerino an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It would be wonderful if conference attendees to ADA would stick to the ToS.

throwaway173738 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Minitrue remake goodthink fullwise.

tapoxi 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not clear how that was violated, since they're handing out an article from the ADA's own journal.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
donkey_brains 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I completely agree with what you are saying, but I have grown too cynical to believe it will ever happen. American capitalism has been very effective at ensuring 2 outcomes:

- The population is kept just comfortable enough to become complacent, with easy access to intoxicants, brainrot media and fast food. Now there are even robots that can do our thinking for us. A large percentage of people are brainwashed into thinking that all change is bad because it will cause them to lose the paltry, ersatz freedom they have rather than gaining real liberty.

- The labor pool is kept large enough that any of us could be replaced immediately with no significant loss to our employers. As the ISP mantra goes, “we have nothing to lose but our jobs”.

Yes, we know that they couldn’t replace _all_ of us at once, but combine points 1 and 2 and you will start to understand why there is no appreciable labor movement in the United States.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What chills me the most, is the self-censorship Americans engage on social media today, everywhere online. It seems Americans today are afraid of talking clearly about general strikes, protesting, rape, sexual violence, censorship and more "taboo" topics, and I'm guessing it's because the platforms kind of shadow-ban people quickly for it.

Growing up, I always heard Americans bragging about freedom of speech, and how important it is. I'll admit I swallowed that wholesale as a young impressionable person in another country, and I still believe in it, just not the American freedom of speech flavor I suppose. But it's so sad to see the state of affairs compared to just ten years ago, where discussions could be freely held, even on mainstream social media, and people weren't afraid of talking about things with clear words.

But the chilling effect is in full effect today, and I think it's having a large impact on how well (or not) the working class could actually mobilize. Because as soon as anyone mentions "general strike" on social media, they seem to disappear into a black hole and that stuff never shows up in people's feeds. Regardless of the size of the labor pool, if you can't organize people somehow, especially across a large country like the US, it's short of impossible to actually get any change in reality.

jandrewrogers an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Americans don't talk about "general strikes" because they don't care about general strikes and never really have. That concept doesn't have a place in American culture. I know socialists keep trying to make it salient but that is like trying to impose democracy on Afghanistan.

You have to work with what you have, not what you wish you had.

watwut 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Americans today are afraid of talking clearly about general strikes, protesting, rape, sexual violence, censorship

Americans are talking about protesting, rape, sexual violence, censorship all the time ... and I mean literally all sides - liberals, conservatives, leftists, feminists, MAGA ...

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Using what words specifically? Besides HN, even people commenting on reddit tends to self-censor words like "r@pe" just because they've realized they get penalized if they talk about things too clearly, on other platforms. Same with general strikes, censorship and more, even on platforms where you don't get downranked automatically just because you used specific terms, people have now started self-censor in those ways.

applfanboysbgon 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> "r@pe"

Whenever you see something like this, it's because the platform has some kind of automoderation policy that is liable to delete/shadowban content containing the word. Typing that, then, is not self-censorship; it's the exact opposite, the defiance of external censorshop.

astura 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>people commenting on reddit tends to self-censor words like "r@pe"

That's just because reddit is almost entirely children and bots/shills. Yes, a platform full of children is going to be childish.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not talking specifically about reddit...

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-]

Using the example of someone typing “r@pe” to get around auto moderation is a pretty specific complaint, and not really an example of self censorship since that person clearly still got to say whatever they wanted to say.

At least online, there is a decent argument to be made that a good cohort of people have significantly lost the ability to self moderate.

like_any_other an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's become very evident from the outside that the best time to stand up was yesterday

"Yesterday" they were largely in favor of censorship: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48434589

joemazerino 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

One man's censorship is another man's social justice and equity policy.

throwaway173738 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

No, it’s not. You shouldn’t have to muzzle your opposition to feel safe, or to threaten them with jailing to feel like your ideas are being heard. That speaks to some pretty deep seated insecurity if you feel that way.

sandworm101 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> If your life hasn't been affected yet, it will be shortly.

If your life hasnt been affected yet, you arent paying attention. Or, it has been affected for the better because you are one of the many who generally support the movement.

emilfihlman 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>“They were respectfully given the opportunity to cease this behavior and chose not to which is why they were escorted out.”

I understand the want to protest, but you do know that misrepresentation doesn't help, right?

Refusing to cease by an even organisers order will, yes, result in being escorted out forcefully by security.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Refusing to cease by an even organisers order will, yes, result in being escorted out forcefully by security

Sure. But if two groups of people are distributing articles published in the organisation’s own journal, with one of them containing elements of political speech, and the organization censors that one, it’s absolutely valid to ask if anyone in government directed that censorship.

The core of the argument is they should not have been asked to cease distributing their article, that’s literally one of the purposes of an academic conference, plenty of other people were doing it in various ways. The ADA, in claiming it was enforcing its rules, was in fact not following them.

ModernMech 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That was the intended result. The story isn't that people were escorted out, it's that they knew they were going to be escorted out and proceeded anyway. That they felt the need to break the rules is the story, because... why did they feel so strongly? Maybe there's a reason behind it?

mcphage 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> given the opportunity to cease this behavior

What behavior exactly were they being given an opportunity to cease?

40four 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

Ask the American Diabetes Association. Their conference, their rules. Do people really believe the ADA is a puppet of the administration?

throwaway173738 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

No, they published their rules ahead of time. When you do that you can’t just go and make up new rules on the spot. That’s a central tenet of “the rule of law” that the rules are written down so we can interpret them.

quietsegfault 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Many of us are protesting every day.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-]

By actually striking, or by waving a sign outside?

Don't get me wrong, anything is better than nothing, and many small streams may form into one big river, eventually. But short of a general strike across impactful industries, I think the current wave of protests won't actually achieve anything.

There is a reason "general strikes" are so feared by the political and wealthy class, and it's because there is no way for them to get rid of them without actually agreeing to some of the demands, otherwise the strikes actually impact their lives. Protesting by going out on the streets waving signs isn't gonna accomplish that, sadly.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> short of a general strike across impactful industries, I think the current wave of protests won't actually achieve anything

If like another 5% of eligible voters committed to voting every election, minor or not, and committed to calling their electeds on one issue every quarter, we’d likely see a sea change.

The threshold for laziness is very low, currently only 1 in 5 [1]. That’s both annoying and an opportunity.

[1] https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-national-survey-shows-...

sailfast 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When was the last general strike? And what would it ask for if it happened?

I understand you’re a fan of the method and it can be impactful but that’s not a reason to state that protesting does not accomplish anything.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not that I'm a fan of the method, it is that it id historically the only non-violent way for a population at large to enact change, once the government stops listening to the people.

Protesting is very effective when you have a government that listens, which clearly isn't the case here, then besides a bunch of violent options, you're basically left with general strikes.

danaris 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

One of the major union leaders in the US—I forget exactly who; it might've been the head of the Teamsters, but this was a while back, so I don't have the details—has, in fact, called for a general strike, as soon as it can be effectively organized.

That's 2028.

General strikes are not something you can just Make Happen. They're certainly not something you can reasonably scoff at an individual (one who's not the head of a major union) for not having Made Happen. They require significant amounts of coordination between unions if you want them to have a prayer of success, and that takes a lot of time.

Don't denigrate protests of the sign-waving type. They are a very important rallying activity for the resistance. Among other things, they help ensure that people who want to fight back know they're not alone, and ensure people who want the fascists to win know their feelings are not universal.

draw_down 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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