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ceejayoz an hour ago

Professors who fail large swathes of their classes get in trouble.

AlanYx an hour ago | parent | next [-]

That's presumably why so many professors are banding together for this letter. 600 professors is a fairly significant chunk of the faculty.

kzz102 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tenured professors do often fail large swathes of the class, and it's not hard to stand their ground because academic freedom is still very important in universities. This is not generally true for non-tenured and adjunct professors, but for a different reason -- their job review rely on a large part on student feedback forms, and failing students are not happy students.

The idea that if only all professors stood their ground then somehow students will be motivated to study doesn't pan out in practice, though. There is already a significant number of students who are perpetually struggling. They are missing basic prerequisites, and instead of catching up on them, they repeated try and fail at learning the same materials, passing only when they got a lenient instructor. The problem compounds because failing brings helplessness and exacerbates their mental issues, which brings more failing. The university cannot sit on their high ground and watch these students struggle, especially if their number reaches a critical mass.

john_strinlai an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

professors who don't/can't cover their curriculum also get in trouble. if i had to dedicate half of my classes to reteaching things the students are required to know before taking my class, i would not cover what i am supposed to, which then has a knock-on effect to the classes that my class is a prereq for.

whenever i have had a larger-than-normal percent of my students failing, i am provided an opportunity to explain it.

btilly 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

When we are put into a catch-22 situation, we should not expect sympathy from the ones who created the catch-22 situation.

SpicyLemonZest an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The full letter (https://ucstudentsuccess.org/) gestures towards "growing pressure to dilute quantitative rigor". The strong implication seems to be that some administrators have told some faculty that the failure rates you'd get from holding the line are unacceptable. Presumably they don't want to frame this issue as a faculty vs. administration thing, which makes sense to me.

1970-01-01 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That is the entire problem in a nutshell. You cannot reject more than one or two students in a year or the school will reject you.

scarmig 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

That's a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Treating universities as a system, it is deeply problematic and even immoral to saddle students with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to enter programs that it is entirely predictable that the student will fail at.

The solution is to use all the methods available to predict how successful the student is likely to be after matriculating, not to water down curriculum to the point where the most marginal student in the class will pass.

SoftTalker 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

But universities need the tuition to support ever more bloated administrative hierarchies and salaries. Most are in a state of abject panic because international graduate enrollments (a cash cow) are way down in the past couple of years. Staff layoffs are starting to happen, which were previously almost unheard of.

throw9494krrj 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

No, moral is to make student loans subject to regular bankrupcy. Student should be also able to get refound, if university misrepresents or lies about their job prospects!

Universities are business as any other!

scarmig 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

That would be a reform I'd get behind.

At the same time, it's still a bad use of funds, and lenders likely wouldn't have the ability to discriminate based on likelihood of bankruptcy or success in an academic program. So it just shifts costs from the student unlikely to succeed to the lender and students likely to succeed.

everdrive 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In part this is a consequence of blank slate ideology, which presupposes that all students are equally capable of identical outcomes and that individual student failures are always / usually systemic failures in disguise.

This is a silly perspective, but the blank slate folks really got their tendrils in just about anywhere. In reality, some people are simply bad at math. More education will help, but they will always be disadvantaged compared to people who are more naturally predisposed. (note, I'm quite bad at math myself)

It may seem altruistic to err on the side of caution here and try to catch the kids that fall through the gaps, (again, assuming that they are falling through the gaps due to systemic failures) but as the article points out, there is a limit to this approach; eventually it brings the talented students down and degrades the program.

john_strinlai 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

>You cannot reject more than one or two students in a year

this seems absurdly low, from my experience. but i have only taught in one school, so maybe we're the outlier? i would say one to two failing students per course is the baseline, not the cap.

can you share where you are getting this number from? is that the guideline where you teach?

Ekaros 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also these are most likely the first classes. You can not block most of your entering cohort. Or even any way significant part. At least in the system these professors exist in. In some other systems like say German where getting in easy and getting rid of some is normal would be different.

SoftTalker 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

This shouldn't be a hard problem to solve. At the state university I'm most familiar with, every incoming Freshman takes a math assessment test. If they don't pass it, they have to take remadial coursework (which does not count towards their degree requirements).

And yes, every student takes it, even the ones with high school AP math and high SAT math scores. The only exception might be if they have already completed and passed actual accredited university math courses for credit.

amanaplanacanal 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

Even my local community college does it this way, I believe for both math and English.

zdragnar 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do they not have remedial classes for these students? It's been more than 20 years, but back in my day, if you weren't ready for entry level classes (but still got in to university) you took remedial classes first.

SpicyLemonZest 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

The processes for delivering remedial classes no longer work at the scale required. UC San Diego published a detailed report of what's happening at their campus (https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio...): their remedial math placement grew from 32 students in 2020 to 921 students in 2025, 665 of whom placed into an extra-remedial course covering grade 1-8 math which had not previously been needed.

ihsw 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

declan_roberts 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The types of students who are entering college needing dramatic remedial math are not the ones you want to fail in large numbers.

radiator 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sounds somewhat defeatist. Besides, the teacher nevers wants to fail anyone. Teachers would be happy if all students performed well.

SoftTalker 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

If I may assume, I think GP is alluding to the likelihood that such students are going to be minorities from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. If they are failing in large numbers, that will open the door to claims of systemic discrimination.

dmoy an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This sounds like the real underlying problem then

Shank an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It's kind of like how if you owe the bank $1000, you have a problem, but if you owe a bank $100M, they have a problem. You just can't reasonably ignore a huge portion of the class as a professor without a serious amount of documentation, and proof that you've tried to escalate and solve the issue. Ultimately, people are paying for these courses, and it's probably better to teach something rather than nothing.

9dev an hour ago | parent [-]

Sounds like people are paying for these courses is part of the actual problem, then? Students should not have any kind of entitlement whatsoever to pass classes other than merit.

amanaplanacanal 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Well... Maybe. From a customer point of view, they are paying for education. If they aren't getting education that's a problem.

From a future employer point of view, they are looking for credentials. But the future employer isn't paying for it.

Do we just admit that the purpose of school is to provide credentials, and that's what the students are actually paying for?

9dev a minute ago | parent [-]

Framing it as a transaction is part of the problem IMHO. We have a collective interest that the majority of the population gets the best education possible. Turning universities into credential stores leads to all the negative side effects we're dealing with - pay to play schemes, dubious credential mills, rich families bribing universities, and so on.

lokar an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They should not admit students who have little chance of success

ceejayoz 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sure, but these students are likely two groups; those who are never going to be good at math, and those who were never really taught math.

The latter may need an opportunity to succeed.

lokar 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

I agree, but they should be admitted into some special program. Like, turn up in July for 3 months of catch-up instruction 4 hrs a day.

ceejayoz an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

There are several interrelated problems.

conartist6 an hour ago | parent [-]

A particular historical virus comes to mind