I guess it's a sign of the times.

I was just reading the old speech by John Barlow, in another post[0]. Sort of dovetails with this.

I spent the majority of my career at a camera manufacturer.

I probably made half of what I could have made, anywhere else, and there were lots of issues, caused by bureaucratic overhead, heavy-handed QA, and cultural misunderstandings.

But not once, during almost 27 years, did I wonder "Are we the baddies?"[1].

My first job was at a defense contractor, where we manufactured surveillance gear, and sold it to militaries and spy agencies around the world. One of the reasons that I left that job, was because we definitely were the baddies.

[0] https://www.eff.org/pages/leaving-physical-world

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

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coldpie 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I decided very early in my career that I would never work for a place that sells ads. Don't think I could sleep at night if I worked at a place like Meta or Google.

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apsurd 15 hours ago | parent [-]

How different is it really though, if you work for a company that buys the ads?

I've thought about this because it's true for most every place I worked, we just funnel money into Google & Meta's coffers and play the SEO and social hacks game just like everyone else.

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coldpie 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I think it's pretty different. As much as you might not want to and put effort into avoiding it, sometimes you must make a deal with the devil to live your life or operate your business, simply because the world is what it is. But working for the devil is a choice.

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spongebobstoes 14 hours ago | parent [-]

in both cases you're making a deal to enrich "the devil" to enrich yourself

could your business simply make less money? could you find other ways to achieve your business goals? could you put in more work for lesser results?

these are the same choices you're asking others to make about their employment

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coldpie 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I understand what you're saying, but no, I don't agree. These companies have positioned themselves so that it is often unavoidable to do business with them.

If you have a visual arts business you are more-or-less required to have an Instagram account, and maybe even advertise on it. It's where your customers and business partners are and if you want to participate in that space, you're handicapping yourself so severely by not being there that you're probably putting your business's existence at risk. It's a similar story for online businesses with Google ads and SEO, and so on. There's shades of grey in how much one decides to do business with these companies, sure, but it's pretty much unavoidable, because of how these companies worked to create & maintain their monopolies.

That's not similar to choosing to work at those companies. There are zillions of jobs out there aside from working at one of the six most evil companies in the country. No one is choosing Google or Meta as their only option. Anyone working at Meta or Google is doing so by choice.

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spongebobstoes 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think we might just disagree, and that's okay

the effectiveness of online ad targeting enables a lot more businesses to be profitable, this is indisputable

it is still a choice to say "I need to run a visual art business that makes $X" as much as it is to say "I need to be a software engineer that makes $Y"

giving Meta money is the easiest option, of course

if you feel you can't achieve your goals without giving Meta money, that's fine, but maybe don't judge those who feel they can't achieve their goals without working for Meta

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Anon1096 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's interesting you call these sites and advertising opportunities absolutely necessary for things like visual arts businesses and yet don't think they are doing any good in the world. If the ad spots and targeting didn't exist then niche internet-ads-dependent businesses also would not.

	▲	coldpie 11 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Advertising is necessary for many businesses. The way Meta & Google sell ads and show them to users by algorithmically monetizing human attention is incredibly harmful to society & humanity. Meta & Google have been so successful at their business and at manipulating governments to avoid regulations and anti-trust enforcement that they have effectively put all other methods of advertising out of business. So, the only way for businesses to advertise now is to participate in the incredibly harmful world of online advertising as run by Meta & Google.

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jjulius 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>I probably made half of what I could have made, anywhere else...

Peace of mind over peace of wallet for me, every time.

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chronogram 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Peace of mind largely depends on peace of wallet for a lot of people. Imagine a life without a care for accommodation or travel. Suddenly you can go wherever you want whenever you want and work on whatever you want without a care.

	▲	ChrisMarshallNY 10 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Good point, but I know a number of pretty wealthy people. They have cares and stress, too; just different from your average Joe[line]. > and work on whatever you want without a care Many companies that pay you lots of money, do so, on the condition that you work on whatever they want you to work on. They also get first dibs on the benefits from that work, usually leaving you with fairly dilute equity, or controlled bonuses, if you're lucky.

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shikshake 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hear hear. I feel lucky to have a stable job in education even if I make less than my big tech colleagues.