| ▲ | bdamm a day ago |
| You need to branch out a bit, and take a look at how countries on the brink actually operate. Go check out Hungary for a country that almost lost their democracy, or check out Russia for a country that never had it but tries to pretend like it does. Canada is measurably not even close to countries like Russia, where voting truly does not matter (and could actually be hazardous to your health.) |
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| ▲ | mothballed a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Having spent my fair share of time in 3rd world shitholes, though I wouldn't particularly like Russia, most of them have levels of freedom in day-to-day life you could only dream of north of the Mexican border in the Americas. In a great deal of area, no one bothers to get a license plate. You can just build a house, no government asshole to block you, and if they do they are only looking for a small bribe. There is no CPS for the next Karen to call to come harass your kids for them playing independently. Very little intervention in family disputes nor practical ability to extract alimony because your wife decided she was "bored." The cash economy thrives. The ability of the government to tax is weak. There is not the money nor personnel available to do Orwellian surveillance and the state has to very strategically pick how to spend its few resources oppressing the populace. Canada and USA have more freedom on paper. If you don't count the fact you're spending 1/4 or 1/3 of the year slaving to pay taxes, burning another 1/3 of the year to make rent because it's illegal to just erect a shack on a postage stamp and live in it for next to nothing, and that the precious 'rule of law' means instead of the policeman asking for a bribe they'll just arrest you on one of the gazillion laws (ignorance of the law is no excuse!) on the books to get their money instead. This isn't to say it's better. But a great deal of my family that could immigrate from the third world... have not.... or they use North America as a cash vacuum while they invest in their 3rd world hometown where they can actually get shit done without a gigantic pile of paperwork and environmental reviews with a gazillion rules attached to start and run a business. |
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| ▲ | HelloMcFly a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't want to get into a big debate on libertarianism, but the The "freedoms" being celebrated here are largely freedoms from accountability: the freedom to build without inspections that protect neighbors from fire hazards or ensure you're building on land you own; the freedom from alimony that ensures a financially dependent spouse who made shared life decisions isn't left destitute because those decisions reduced their personal earning potential; the freedom to abuse and neglect your children to whatever extreme degree you wish. The weak state and cash economy being romanticized also tend to mean no enforced worker safety, no recourse when a business defrauds you, and no accessible courts for the poor - all freedoms that disproportionately belong to whoever is strongest or most corrupt. Regulations are often irritating precisely because they encode hard-won protections for people who aren't you. | | |
| ▲ | armchairhacker 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > the freedom to build without inspections that protect neighbors from fire hazards or ensure you're building on land you own; the freedom from alimony that ensures a financially dependent spouse who made shared life decisions isn't left destitute because those decisions reduced their personal earning potential; the freedom to abuse and neglect your children to whatever extreme degree you wish. Sometimes. Other times the “hazards” are non-existent, the destitute spouse is the one paying, and the “neglect” is reasonable non-helicopter parenting. > no enforced worker safety, no recourse when a business defrauds you, and no accessible courts for the poor Sometimes. Other times the government ignores these or supports the oppressor. A good strong government is ideal, but a weak government is better than a bad strong government. Usually when government gets too large it becomes corrupt (bureaucracy…), but if it’s too small another group (or groups) will step in as unofficial government. | |
| ▲ | vanjoe a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Isn't that what all freedom is? Every restriction on freedom is for the benefit of society. At least according to those making those restrictions. Even the soviets thought that the reason suppression was necessary was so that those at the top could fix the country and make it better for everyone. | | |
| ▲ | HelloMcFly 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Every restriction on freedom is for the benefit of society. A different way to say it: restrictions on freedoms are necessary to enable other freedoms. There is no such thing as total freedom when one lives in a society because one for of freedom for person A will impugn on a different freedom for person B. |
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| ▲ | triceratops a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | What would your family do if someone with a gun came and took away their land or their business? | | |
| ▲ | jrflowers a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Hire a lawyer to get it back from the police. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's the most confusing answer I've ever read. | | |
| ▲ | jrflowers 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | How so? | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Didn't think I needed to spell it out but here goes. If the police can take your things away at gunpoint, a lawyer isn't going to be much use. (Yes I'm aware of civil forfeiture. This discussion was about places outside the US). | | |
| ▲ | jrflowers 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Where do you live that armed bandits robbing people of _land_ is an issue but municipal/police corruption is not? And also there is no legal recourse to contest having your land seized? Obviously it can’t be Canada, where property, including land and businesses, can be seized pending forfeiture being declared by the courts. https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/service... | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's exactly my point. mothballed waxed poetic about how "free" a land without government control is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48114935 I don't see that as a paradise. No matter where you live, someone will come along and take your shit by force. At least in a functioning state with rule of law there are rules about how much they can take, and you get other services in return. |
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| ▲ | mothballed a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | They have tried and failed against some people I'm aware of. Unfortunately I don't feel comfortable going into details of exactly how they failed, but I understand it was quite persuasive. Of course in the USA and Canada, it is illegal to defend property by force, except maybe in Texas. So you will probably just get your things taken and then pray the police help (they probably will not). In any case it's true that you'll probably have to defend your life and property if the government will not. Unfortunately I'm not seeing even western governments as effective at this, and to the extent it is effective, it's more a result of culture / personal self defense / non-governmental community efforts than anything related to the government. In this case having weak governance that at least doesn't have the judicial resources to prosecute people defending themselves can actually be a plus. | | |
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| ▲ | stackedinserter a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In the last 15 years while I lived in Canada, my vote literally did not matter, thanks to FPTP. |
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| ▲ | slopinthebag a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > where voting truly does not matter This seems to be the case in Canada as well, at least for myself and my demographic. I've yet to win an election and I doubt I will until the older generations die off in a couple decades. So there's really no meaningful difference for myself, except I could get fined for drinking a beer on the beach and I smoke because Zyn's are completely banned. Really "free" country eh. |
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| ▲ | bdamm a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This sounds more like you're just unhappy that the majority of people where you live have different beliefs than you do. Have you tried running in an election or volunteering with a party? You might find it quite interesting. | | |
| ▲ | slopinthebag a day ago | parent [-] | | I probably would find it interesting, but it still wouldn't change the fact that representative democracy is a fantasy. |
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| ▲ | thunderfork a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You could always move to a riding with an MP you like better than the ones that win in yours. Easier said than done, of course, but it's democracy, not slopinthebag-ocracy. |
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