This is a lesson in how electricity isn't really a commodity e.g. it's very very difficult to send some electrons from one side of the world to another.

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hn_throwaway_99 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But all commodities are like this. It is actually pretty easy to send some electrons great distances, or heck at least it's a well understood, solved problem. It's just that those interconnections haven't been built yet.

Heck, oil is probably the "default" example of what a commodity is, but we're now all acutely aware of what happens when moving that oil from one place to another becomes exceedingly difficult.

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pyrale 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> or heck at least it's a well understood, solved problem.

It is not. As a case in my point, Spain had a blackout last year (and I completely believe they are competent professionals - the task is just hard).

> It's just that those interconnections haven't been built yet.

They haven't been built because the grid isn't just a technical problem. It's also a socioeconomic problem, and adding new interconnections would require finding who needs to pay for it ; and currently, that question has no answer.

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4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[deleted]

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bryanlarsen 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hard is relative. Sure, it's hard, but it's a lot simpler problem than something like being able to consume tropical fruit in a temperate country in the middle of winter.

The difference of course is that the invisible hand of the market gets that fruit into grocery stores. For various relatively good reasons, power is driven by very visible hands.

	▲	pyrale 9 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> Sure, it's hard, but it's a lot simpler problem than something like being able to consume tropical fruit in a temperate country in the middle of winter. "Brain surgery? Well, that's not exactly rocket science..."
	▲	gusgus01 5 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		There are quite a few visible hands driving the fruit industry. Trade agreements, tariffs, water rights, disease/blight controls, and of course weather events/patterns are regularly in the news and discussed as it pertains to the cost and availability of various fruits (and veg). Off the top of my head, we've recently had shortages of fresh strawberries because of weather in California, a shortage of peas because of weather too, and various changes in Trump's tariffs were done to try and alleviate the rising cost of certain fruit and veg.

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verzali an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is actually very easy to move electrons. I only need to get on an aeroplane to move a lot of electrons around.

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toast0 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Commodities are traded on type, quantity, and place. Oil of a specific grade at a specific port. Pork bellies (no longer traded) of a specific grade in Chicago. Etc.

If you want the commodities elsewhere, you have to provide for transportation. Same for electricity. Grids (or grid sections) where supply outpaces local demand and transmission to remote grids can hit negative spot prices even when neighboring grids haven't.

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pyrale 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That it is treated as such speaks volumes to the craft of the people designing and maintaining the grid.

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mhh__ 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Unfortunately in Britain at least politicians are absolutely dead set on taking the piss / abusing this by e.g. adding huge amounts of subsidy and stealth taxes into what should be price discovery mechanisms (or for example when was the last time you heard someone talking about how cheap renewables are and discuss the CfD schemes).

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tialaramex 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> when was the last time you heard someone talking about how cheap renewables are and discuss the CfD schemes

All the time? Every single HN discussion about this ends mentioning CfD, often as if it's some secret nobody knows about even though the CfD strike prices are often headline news when they're agreed.

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mhh__ 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I've basically only just seen this stuff started to be discussed critically in the media in fairly recent years.

not including $work discussions with energy traders.

	▲	tialaramex 7 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> in fairly recent years Although this financial instrument dates from late last century, its use in energy markets is much newer, the UK began using CfDs for electricity about a decade ago. So, yeah, if you recall conversation about wholesale electricity prices back in 2010 they wouldn't have mentioned CfDs for the same reason they didn't mention the effect of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it hadn't happened yet. Back then renewable electricity generation schemes were subsidised very differently.