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Aurornis 5 hours ago

> Something about the whole thing always registered to me as, like, lame—too normcore, too boring, perhaps even too cheugy to an informed and taste-driven millennial ur-consumer like me. The kinds of brands I like to buy aren’t what they sell at Costco

Good example of how people can build identities through their brand choices and purchasing habits.

It’s a foreign concept for many of us who seek out the best product or deals for each purchase and will change brands in an instant if another company releases a better product. Yet the crossover between brands, identities, and lifestyles is deeply held by many people.

I know some will try to turn this into a criticism of Americans, but in my travels and international business experience I wouldn’t even rank Americans in the top 10 for integrating brands and identity. In some countries I had to make a conscious effort to try to wear clothes from acceptable brands and swap my functional laptop bag for something more stylish to avoid letting my purchasing habits become a point of judgment from others. It’s actually refreshing to come back to America where as long as you’ve made some effort to look more or less appropriate for the occasion few people care about the brand of your clothes, laptop bag, or car. Some people are proud of their Audi or designer bag, but I rarely run into situations where I’d be judged for arriving in a sensible Subaru instead of a Mercedes.

elzbardico an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> In some countries I had to make a conscious effort to try to wear clothes from acceptable brands and swap my functional laptop bag for something more stylish to avoid letting my purchasing habits become a point of judgment from others.

It is kind of fascinating, having come from such a culture, to realize that in the end, Americans, at least the average of the America I met, are not nearly brand conscious as I and everyone in my place supposed them to be.

Of course, America is a fucking giant and diverse place, and I think that even native born Americans have no fucking idea of how many different Americas exist, so, take my views of America with a giant grain of salt.

legitster 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "What's great about this country is America started the tradition where the richest consumers buy essentially the same things as the poorest. You can be watching TV and see Coca-Cola, and you can know that the President drinks Coke, Liz Taylor drinks Coke, and just think, you can drink Coke, too. A Coke is a Coke and no amount of money can get you a better Coke than the one the bum on the corner is drinking. All the Cokes are the same and all the Cokes are good.” - Andy Warhol

Unfortunately I think America is starting to lose this way a bit, with the influx of newer premium brands and the fracturing of American consumers into endless lifestyle personas. But there's still some truth left in it.

giwook 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> where the richest consumers buy essentially the same things as the poorest

To say that "the richest consumers buy essentially the same things as the poorest" by using Coke as an example is a significant oversimplification and is cherry picking examples to prove a point. The richest consumers buy plenty of consumer goods that the poorest cannot even dream of buying or even renting.

If there was a truffle-infused Coke with edible 24k gold flakes that cost 10x as much (and actually tasted good) you can be sure pretty much only the richest consumers would be drinking it, and that everyone who couldn't afford it would be doing everything in their power to keep up with the Joneses.

What percentage of "the poorest" own their own home or go on international trips more than once a year let alone owning multiple homes, luxury cars, and private jets?

legitster 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Andy Warhol's quote is about aspiration and perceived attainment. The average person is not aspiring to drink a gold flake truffle-infused Coke.

The implication is the lack of a rigorous class hierarchy in America. Not that the rich don't live different lifestyles or consume more. But that niche luxury products were considered effete and un-American.

(Andy Warhol was almost certainly also being ironic - that the richest people in America publicly shared the same trashy taste as average Americans).

The closest analogue today might be an iPhone. Rich or poor, if you want the "best" phone you have an iPhone. Sure, there are gaudier and more expensive phones out there. But you're essentially using the same product as the richest Americans.

giwook 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Fair point.

What about cars or houses?

Petersipoi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> no amount of money can get you a better Coke than the one the bum on the corner is drinking

Doesn't the fact that the original quote literally acknowledges "bums on the corner" imply that he wasn't referring to housing at all?

trollbridge an hour ago | parent [-]

I have found the Coke machines at Costco to always have a perfect mixture.

queuebert 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A Tesla will out accelerate all but the most niche cars now. Even the cheapest cars can have giant screens and climate control. I don't think they are equal to a Rolls Royce, but extreme luxury has greater diminishing returns now than at any point in history.

Where I live pretty much all new houses are being built with granite counter tops and hardwood floors. Whether that's a good thing is a whole other topic ...

jerlam an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Where I live pretty much all new houses are being built with granite counter tops and hardwood floors. Whether that's a good thing is a whole other topic ...

When land and labor (and fees leveraged by the city, state, etc.) are extremely expensive, the additional cost for these "luxury" items is very low by comparison. The buyers for these homes are buying everything new and it makes little sense to save $10k or so on such a visible amenity that is expensive to retrofit afterwards, on a home that costs $500k.

It is the same reason why crank windows are gone from cars. They aren't really status symbols.

malfist 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A Tesla Model 3, dual motor has a 0 to 60 speed of 4.3 seconds. My F-150 lightening extended range can do that it 3.8 seconds.

MarkusQ an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Tesla Model3 dual is 4.03 seconds, not 4.3 while the F-150 lightning standard range is 4.2.

The F-150 extended range is 3.8 as you state, but then the Tesla Model 3 performance comes in at 2.8.

https://www.0-60specs.com/tesla/model-3-0-60-times

https://www.fordoffeasterville.com/blogs/4896/ford-lightning...

wing-_-nuts an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I was sad to see it discontinued. I hope the slate truck is gonna be good when it's released, cause I dig their emphasis on customization and repairability.

malfist 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

Me too, it's such a fantastic truck. Built like a tank, huge battery and insanely fast charging for a 400V architecture. The only thing that sucks about it is it's a bit bouncy, and the software can be stupid. But I love it.

hn_acc1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>A Tesla will out accelerate all but the most niche cars now.

Claims presented without evidence. My slightly modified Subaru Wagon from '05 "out-accelerated" base Teslas - dead even in 1st gear, started pulling once the shift to 2nd happened. (Most) EVs cannot shift gears to get torque multiplication, so they start fast, but fall off as speeds get higher. My Kia gas car will outrun all but the model 3 performance - which the average person is NOT driving. Neither of those cars are "niche".

Kirby64 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> My slightly modified Subaru Wagon from '05 "out-accelerated" base Teslas - dead even in 1st gear, started pulling once the shift to 2nd happened.

Slightly modified is doing some heavy lifting there. No 2005 Subaru wagon in stock config is anywhere close to beating a Model 3.

> (Most) EVs cannot shift gears to get torque multiplication, so they start fast, but fall off as speeds get higher.

Pretty much irrelevant, because they’re still blisteringly fast up to 60 which is where most of the acceleration happens in day to day. Nobody really cares about 60-80 or 60-100.

> My Kia gas car will outrun all but the model 3 performance - which the average person is NOT driving.

What Kia is that? Even the stinger GT (which is definitely a niche car) is slower than a regular dual motor model 3.

queuebert 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

EV motors can rev insanely high, so they don't need to shift gears, while most gas engines are limited to 6-7k RPM from factory. Thus the gassers need gears that essentially torque divide to reduce RPMs. You are very confused.

shaftway 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That fancy Lamborghini is going to be sitting in the same traffic as my Honda.

bartvk 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You're equals in that regard, but try riding a motorcycle one day. I live in a country where lanesplitting is legal. There's nothing quite like getting passed by an extremely expensive car, and then at the traffic lights, cut in front of it.

skeeter2020 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

no - it will be getting very expensive servicing while you're enjoying 200K+ trouble-free miles

Our_Benefactors 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which is of course entirely besides the point. While it’s receiving service the owner will be in their Honda accord (they drive it daily), but they will always have the top trim and will probably get a new one once it’s out of warranty and needs its first “real entropy” repair.

Being rich is better than being poor. The Warhol quote has nothing to do with that fact.

wing-_-nuts an hour ago | parent [-]

>Being rich is better than being poor.

As someone who started out very poor, and is now ~ 30x above that. I strongly subscribe to the idea that happiness from income is very logarithmic. The first 2-3x income was life changing. I'm talking going from eating pasta, rice and beans for most meals to fresh fruit and veg, lean cuts of meat. From renting a room in a noisy apartment with 4 other people to having my own place that was both safe and quiet. My reading list was suddenly more constrained by time instead of price or library backlog.

I suppose it's down to my starting position, a content disposition and a boring lack of imagination, but my expenses have now ~ 5x'd what they were when I was on the strugglebus, but still very modest, and I honestly can't identify any spending that would make my life better or make me happier long term.

msla 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

It's close to true about personal computers. The poorest can't afford Apple computers, but you don't need to be that rich to buy Apple hardware and what's up from that in terms of mainstream status? Nothing, as far as I can see. Specific groups might want a Framework laptop or System76, but those brands are invisible to most people, including, it seems, most rich people.

(And for servers and other business machines, well, other criteria apply, but owning something in the Top500 has to count for something in terms of prestige.)

thinkingtoilet 2 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not the same, but concerts used to be affordable. Now they are insane. I'm incredibly fortunate that I have a high paying job and can afford to go to shows if I wanted to but I refuse to pay these insane ticket prices. Same with sports. I no longer have any desire to go to an MLB game and get fleeced with a $15 bud light. I'll go to some minor league game in a shitty stadium with no special amenities and enjoy a baseball experience. We are at the breaking point and it's showing.

elzbardico an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

American capitalism, for all its defects, was always a mass oriented endeavour in constrast with Continental Europe.

The mantra was sell more, more, more and more, and to do that, you need to sell things to poor people to. A French enterpreneur would be happy selling phones only for the upper middle class and above. In America the idea was to install as many landlines as possible and gain with scale.

legitster 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

> American capitalism, for all its defects, was always a mass oriented endeavour in constrast with Continental Europe.

I think it's important to call out that the "capitalism = more stuff" idea is a bit of historical revisionism.

Soviet leaders very specifically saw the goal of Communism was to create abundance and a post scarcity society. There are lots of quotes in particular from Khrushchev about this:

“The socialist system will outstrip capitalism in labor productivity. It will provide the people with more goods, more cultural benefits, and ensure a higher standard of living.”

“Communism is the highest form of organization of society for labor. On the basis of powerful productive forces, it ensures the highest productivity of labor and abundance of material and cultural values for the whole people.”

And it's worth pointing out that that this isn't a Soviet invention. Marx himself made it a central point that material deprivation was an ill (not a feature) of captialism:

"After the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly — only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety…”

“The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially… but guaranteeing them the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties — this possibility is now for the first time here.”

When communist abundance failed to materialize, there was a concerted effort to reframe the promise of communism to be purely one of egalitarianism and turn overconsumption against the West as a criticism.

alhazrod 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An Italian man once told me, "Coca-Cola is American champagne." Take it as you will.

FireBeyond 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Unfortunately I think America is starting to lose this way a bit, with the influx of newer premium brands

Witness Erewhon fruit juices/smoothies.

antonvs 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Andy Warhol was an apologist for the toxic consumer culture in the US. It’s a big part of why he was so successful.

Coke is a great example. There’s no product more useless and unnecessary than that flavored fizzy sugar water. Or should I say, high fructose corn syrup water. If you drink it, why? Probably because you were indoctrinated since childhood. Same goes for pretty much all fast food. There’s nothing good or desirable about any of it unless you’ve been indoctrinated into thinking that.

windows2020 6 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sometimes on a hot day for the short period the kid's napping I find myself at Home Depot searching for this or that tired from the work week under pressure as the clock ticks down having no idea what I'm doing and I make it to checkout tired no exhausted and I see the ice cold cooler the Coke its last moments before it's soaked with condensation open the door scan it rush to the car twist it open it screams wow sometimes there's nothing like an ice cold Coke.

krustyburger 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It sounds like you’ve just been around toxic and superficial people in your international travels and then extrapolated from them to their whole countries.

Unfortunately, they have people like that everywhere.

giwook 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Not necessarily.

South Korea is one example that I have intimate knowledge of where one's consumer habits (the clothes one wears, the car one drives, the logo on one's handbag) is the ultimate signal of status.

You're automatically pre-judged by complete strangers without having to say a single word.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but it is in fact an unspoken rule over there.

RigelKentaurus 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The same is true in India. I live in the US, and when I visit relatives in India, they are nonplussed that I can afford a fancier car but choose to drive a Toyota. Clothes, watches, my phone brand - everything is under constant analysis and people feel free to comment on everything. I am used to it now but it gets tiring.

computerdork 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

Was going to say this. Am in the US, and have Indian friends, and they are much more brand conscious than the average American.

bryceacc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

are you not describing "toxic and superficial" ? I specifically take issue with pre-judgement based on clothes, cars, and logos.

giwook 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think he was saying it was an unfair extrapolation to say that OP's limited experience with a small subset of people defined an entire nation.

I'm saying that in the case of South Korea, that extrapolation is very much accurate.

snapcaster 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

superficial maybe, "toxic" is your own personal idealogy

tavavex 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I know some will try to turn this into a criticism of Americans, but in my travels and international business experience I wouldn’t even rank Americans in the top 10 for integrating brands and identity.

Can you give a few examples of those brand-centric cultures? Which product categories do they follow? I've never seen anything like this, so if I were to go to one of the places that has this culture, I should probably know about it in advance.

dghlsakjg 2 hours ago | parent [-]

China, India, Singapore, and Korea are a few off the top of my head.

throw0101c an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It’s a foreign concept for many of us who seek out the best product or deals for each purchase and will change brands in an instant if another company releases a better product.

Perhaps those folks found certain brands regularly have decent (enought) quality and stick with them, and/or they have a personal aesthetic that they've developed that may be 'limited' to certain brands.

Some folks also don't want to go through the effort of constantly/regularly (re-)evaluating things: they've found that Brand X gives them enough quality/value, and have stopped looking.

margalabargala an hour ago | parent [-]

> Some folks also don't want to go through the effort of constantly/regularly (re-)evaluating things: they've found that Brand X gives them enough quality/value, and have stopped looking

This argument stops holding water when those same people start judging other people for not also using Brand X.

hiAndrewQuinn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>build identities through [...] purchasing habits

> foreign concept for many of us who seek out the best product or deals for each purchase and will change brands in an instant

But you are, yourself, defining yourself partially here through your own purchasing habits. In fact you are doing it to a far more universal degree than most of the ones you criticize.

Not that I'm immune to it, but nor do I claim to be. I think it's useful signal just like anything else. Watch: My quintessential American habit is that I wear roughly the same nondescript black T shirt, black boxer briefs, black socks, and maybe an unlabeled black hoddie that I purchase off of Amazon, mostly just sorting by ratings. If at any point I reach into my closet and the stock-flow system that is my laundry habits have deemed it such that I am actually out of stock of any of these items, I immediately go to Amazon and purchase another 6- or 4- or 12-pack. If you feel you understand me better as a person after reading all that, you probably do.

Exoristos an hour ago | parent [-]

Exposing my superficiality, perhaps: but it pains me that you don't wear pants.

vunderba 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It’s a foreign concept for many of us who seek out the best product or deals for each purchase and will change brands in an instant if another company releases a better product.

For those of us who grew up in the era of the "Are you a Mac or a PC" [1], many Americans are intimately familiar with the concept of brand identity.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_a_Mac

add-sub-mul-div 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Some people are proud of their Audi or designer bag, but I rarely run into situations where I’d be judged for arriving in a sensible Subaru instead of a Mercedes.

I agree. You can go into Costco and see a store full of individuals who happen to be shopping at Costco that day, or you can go to Costco and see the same people as slaves to an imagined Costco lifestyle that you can then write about for 800 words. It says more about the author than the shoppers. This article is the worst kind of lifestyle trend engineering.

criddell an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Slaves to an imagined Costco lifestyle? That's not the vibe I picked up from the article at all.

I enjoyed reading about the writer realizing he's turning into his father and taking photos of things his dad used to buy to share with his mom. He spots people that may be falling in love. Clumsy people apologizing to nobody. He counts eight different languages.

I thought it was charming and a little nostalgic.

stantaylor 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would agree. The implicit (or actually pretty explicit in a couple of sentences) class disdain is so tiring.

Den_VR 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

South Korea?