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zug_zug 7 hours ago

Yeah I'm glad somebody's talking about it. Wealth inequality seems like it will be THE defining issue of our lives (accelerated drastically by AI).

I think there are many practical ways to solve it, and would love to see more proposals out there. Instead I tend to see nihilism or division.

georgeecollins 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A great practical suggestion comes in the recent book: "The Second Estate" by Ray Madoff. It is an excellent analysis of the changes to tax policy in the US that have gotten us here. (Yes, I know this isn't just a US problem, but the US is the most important part.) One key suggestion is just to make transferring money into any trust (any!) a taxable event so that capital gains must be realized.

It sounds trivial but the effect to various tax evasion strategies is very important. It's also something that really ought to be uncontroversial. Read the book!

aidenn0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Using an asset as debt-collateral triggering gains being realized would be good too. As would unifying the income and capital gains tax.

I disagree with TFA's idea that a wealth tax is the best solution. IMO wealth is easier to hide than income, it's just that nobody bothers right now with there being no wealth tax.

slibhb 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Inequality isn't a big problem. Those who claim it is seem to think that the existence of really rich people causes the existence of really poor people. That is not the case.

It's natural that things are less equal now that we're not farmers or hunter-gatherers. Economies of scale will massively enrich those who take build them.

Sometimes it is claimed that inequality is a problem because the rich will control politics. But populism is surging and the rich seem to have a harder time controlling politics than ever, largely due to the disintegration of the print/tv media.

stavros 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don't think anyone says that really poor people are caused by the existence of really rich people. The argument, as I understand it, is that spreading the wealth of billionaires around would mean fewer really poor people.

tardedmeme 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Extreme power inequality seems to be the default state of human society. Power concentrates until it's maximally concentrated, then stays there. Power shakeups seem to usually replace one group of elites with another group of smaller or the same size.

Exceptions to this rule come about for specific reasons. Before the industrial revolution, there just wasn't that much power to go around. Everyone was working their land for sustenance, and the rent-seeking nobility extracted some percent of production because that's what there was to extract. When the industrial revolution came, those who figured out how to exploit it became the new nobility and worked their employees to the bone. It was only after actual, bloody, war between the factory owners and the employees that we got labor rights, which were a truce agreement. And that agreement's been steadily declining since Reagan. It took a while because the beneficiaries of the labor rights era were able to hold onto their wealth and pass it down to their children, but now we're back in the same factory feudalism situation again, but with different technological status.

harimau777 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That sounds like the same observation that Thomas Jefferson made:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

bryanrasmussen 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

generally the power shakeup that replaces an elite with another elite is one that replaces an old elite with a rising elite better able to take advantage of some economic conditions the old elite is ill-equipped to take advantage of

https://medium.com/luminasticity/the-new-exploiters-9d8a0684...

6AA4FD 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Great works on this subject, to my mind refuting your nebulous thesis, include Debt by Graeber, Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wengrow, and Mutual Aid by Kropotkin.

thrance 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think you'll find that any specific change in political directions come about from specific reasons (what would even be the alternative?).

joe_mamba 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Everyone was working their land for sustenance, and the rent-seeking nobility extracted some percent of production because that's what there was to extract

Until the black death came in the 1300's and killed an estimated 30–60% of Europe's population, and now the nobility had nobody to rent seek or even to work their land.

So then, for the first time ever, the surviving workers gained bargaining power as landowners (lords) competed for labor, leading to high cash wages, better working conditions, and more freedom for peasants, because the feudal lords hadn't yet figured out how to replace the peasants with slaves, H1-Bs and illegals from across the planet.

So according to history, including your post-WW1 example, the only times peasants gained bargaining power was when millions of them died through world wars and global pestilence.

Looking at recent unfolding history, "There's something very familiar about all this" -Biff Tannen

readthenotes1 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know why you're down voted. Perhaps the observation that inequality is often and the noble savage utopian dream of "all pigs are equal" is not the norm is too a bitter pill to swallow

verall 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I believe it's because in many cases, the unspoken follow on to "inequality is the norm" is "and so it's useless (or actively harmful) to try to defy that norm."

Not that above commentator is meaning that.

But many "thought leaders" i.e. Jordan Petersen play around with similar motte-and-bailey - "hierarchies are natural" (examples with lobsters, apes, whatever) --> "existing hierarchies should be preserved" (not defended in the argument but implied).

Probably some downvoters are reacting to the structural similarity, although taken in good faith i think above commenter makes a fine point about the historical pattern of periods of equality being short lived and brought about by great intentional effort while sliding back to inequality seems to occur all of the time.

goatlover 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We do need to include the vast human pre-history when makings sweeping claims about the natural state of human society. There might be something about civilizations that concentrate power which wasn't seen nearly as much among hunter-gatherer groups. If so, there might be steps that can be taken to counter it (indeed the past several centuries would strongly suggest so).

_ink_ 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What are these practical ways to solve it? And who do you think will implement them? Especially when Billionaires control the opinions of a big chunk of the population.

roxolotl 6 hours ago | parent [-]

You can read about the transition from the Gilded Age to The Progressive Era in US history for potential solutions. Anti-trust and political reform is a bit part. Political opinions were controlled undemocratically during that period as well through political machines. Direct election of senators, direct primaries, women’s suffrage were enacted to help with that.

ethanwillis 6 hours ago | parent [-]

And when these things aren't possible?

XorNot 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The US despite everything still runs a popular vote driven democracy that is clearly capable of implementing on short notice, sweeping changes to policy.

The problem remains that the US voter consistently demonstrates they don't actually care about these problems though, compared to using the state to intentionally inflict misery on subgroups they don't like.

The most radical thing the current administration proves is how unimportant taxes and cost of living actually were to its voters, given the broad support it retains despite overtly and continuously raising or making both those problems worse (read cares as: "understands" - for a group which wouldn't shut up about it, apparently significant changes aren't crippling enough to get them to change their vote in many cases).

jbxntuehineoh 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> clearly capable of implementing on short notice, sweeping changes to policy

well, as long as the policy changes in question can be implemented by executive order. good luck doing anything that requires actual legislation.

> The problem remains that the US voter consistently demonstrates they don't actually care about these problems though, compared to using the state to intentionally inflict misery on subgroups they don't like.

what does this mean, exactly? it sounds like you're trying to say that things would have been different, if only those pesky voters hadn't voted for Trump. but they _did_ vote for someone other than Trump in 2020, and that did very little to affect the issues mentioned in the article

kasey_junk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think this administration truly puts paid to the idea that billionaires control the US. Trump was _broke_ now he’s making billionaires the world over kiss the ring.

This happened because he’s consistently harnessed the power of the popular vote. Just today he flexed that muscle in Indiana.

I’m distraught that my fellow Americans keep falling for his circus barking and he’s made it clear that norms don’t matter and gerrymandering may be the end of the republic. But you can’t deny the power of the regular persons vote after him.

JuniperMesos an hour ago | parent [-]

Trump was never actually broke, but his popularity comes from the fact that he took a bunch of public political stances that his political opponents refused to take because they genuinely thought those stances were immoral; and then won elections based on those stances because a lot of the electorate also liked them.

There isn't actually one monolithic class of billionaires that all share the same interests and want the same things; and even though an individual billionaire can be personally influential, they simply do not have the power to unilaterally determine the political direction of a country. But regardless of what political direction a country does go in, there's probably some billionaire who is more or less aligned with that direction. So anyone who dislikes that political direction can point to the nearest-ideologically-aligned billionaire and blame them for influencing politics in that way, despite the fact that if the tables were turned and their side was winning, someone else would point to whatever billionaire aligned with them as an evil influencer.

Recurecur 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

“Trump was never actually broke, but his popularity comes from the fact that he took a bunch of public political stances that his political opponents refused to take because they genuinely thought those stances were immoral”

Um, no. His popularity comes from a willingness to actually do the things that many other politicians said they were going to do, often while campaigning, and never did.

ethanwillis 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

tomhow 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If you’re trying to make the case that “sometimes violence is the only answer”, please stop.

It’s the responsibility of thoughtful people in a civilized society to find ways of solving problems, even very large and deep ones, without violence.

As soon as we think “there’s no alternative other than violence”, we need to think harder. All the worst atrocities in history happened because enough people allowed themselves to think “violence is the only answer”.

ethanwillis an hour ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

tomhow 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

On this site we want interesting new ideas, not humanity's most primitive urges replayed over and over again.

ethanwillis 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

So if it's not guillotines and instead massed autonomous attack drones that would be an acceptable way to discuss violence?

Just want to make sure I understand you fully.

tomhow a minute ago | parent [-]

Please don't, in one comment, call me “naive and childish” then try this kind of switcheroo the next. The topic of “guillotines” relates to performative violence against fellow citizens over political/economic disagreement. National defense is a different topic. They're both important topics and if they’re going to be discussed they deserve to be discussed earnestly. Glorification of violence has never been within the guidelines or norms on HN.

nervysnail 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

idle_zealot 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you have a vanguard with special privileges then congrats, you've replaced the inequality of Capitalism with another inequality. This is the exact challenge GP is talking about; it's hard to avoid the tendency for power to accumulate.

nervysnail 5 hours ago | parent [-]

What about the quantity of the inequality? If our equality at the moment is 1 to 60, certainly 1 to 6 is better, no?

I cannot see a way out other than socialism, unfortunately.

Why unfortunately? Because under current conditions a revolution seems very unlikely, and if you really decide to become a socialist, committed and organized, you risk a lot.

You risk imprisonment, getting beaten by the police, going to prison for quite some time. And by investing your time and energy studying Marxist theory, Lenin, matters regarding the unique material conditions of the country you are revolting in, you risk your 'field', by field I mean you risk your occupation or profession. For example, you are a biologist, and you can't see a way out of this capitalist predicament, and feel a strong responsibility towards the world, you are now robbed of your time because you have to study socialist theory.

The other person in your field is indifferent (not a moral judgment) about politics, and will outperform you.

pandaman 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

>You risk imprisonment, getting beaten by the police, going to prison for quite some time.

That's very true, especially if the revolution succeeds. Only few OG Bolsheviks survived purges by their own comrades, for example.

Muromec 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

... was an ideology that gave 200 million of people universal healthcare, universal childcare, public housing and increased luteracy rates but took away democracy and national self determination, unleashed genocide and allied with literal Hitler

sophacles 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most ideologies are terrible in those regards. The various forms of democratic capitalism have been pretty big on genocide and oppression too. Most of them were were pretty unconcerned with Hitler until after the marxist-leninists were already fighting him.

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

hermitcrab 5 hours ago | parent [-]

>Most of them were were pretty unconcerned with Hitler until after the marxist-leninists were already fighting him.

Britain, France and allies were fighting Hitler in 1939. Russia was allied with Hitler until 1941, when Hitler attacked:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...

sophacles 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And outside of Europe, a huge number of capitalist democracies didn't join in or pick a side until late 1941 (6 months after the invasion of the USSR), at the same(ish) time as the US joined.

Just i know there were preferred trading partners and aide packages from countries to one side or the other, but if Perl Harbor hadn't happened, it was by no means certain the US and many other countries would have entered the war and instead just let it settle itself.

Of course Europe was involved in the European war. Turns out Europe is only a small part of the world tho.

jrflowers 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I love this link about a treaty, which the Soviets broke quickly, that was the direct result of a different treaty between Nazi Germany, the UK, France, and Italy that was signed a year earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

It seems like the signatories to that treaty had no issue with the Nazis annexing particular bits of Europe at the time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

nervysnail 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How did it take away national self-determination exactly? The Soviet model regarding self-determination was definitely better than what any other nation had. I probably don't have to mention that Lenin wrote a whole book on national self-determination, defending the right to self-determination on the condition that it does not harm the socialist project.

Although one may call it superficial, a mere formality no indicator of self-determination in the Republic, it is remarkable that the Soviet ruble had 15 local languages printed on the banknote.

jacquesm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, in large part by murdering those that were actually trying to self-determinate...

vidarh 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My view is that Lenin probably meant well, but he made fatal mistakes with "democratic" centralism and the vanguardist approach, which allowed for both his own consolidation of power but also Stalins. And Stalin did not give a shit about self-determination, not just within the USSR, but within the whole Soviet bloc.

pitaj 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My hot take is that wealth inequality is the least bad problem we could have, if it is even a problem at all.

What people are actually experiencing is not wealth inequality, but cost disease. Vital things (housing, healthcare, education) are more expensive - and that's mostly the fault of state action.

BobbyJo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Two things:

1) You have to get it out of your head that it is enough when everyone has X standard of living. It isn't. It's enough when less than a critical threshold of the population is dissatisfied, and that dissatisfaction can come no matter what the median/lowest standard of living is. This is just how societies work, uniformly.

2) Money is a ledger supported by a social contract. Spending wealth in ways that erode the social contract is bad. I think we can all agree 500M dollar yachts, empty luxury apartment buildings, and buying up shorelines in populated areas are all bad looks, and therefore, erode the social contract. The wealthy really need to step in and police each other socially here, if they want to continue being wealthy.

gazebo2 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But that state action is the direct result of wealth's influence over the state and how it operates

inglor_cz 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Two of the three (housing and education) don't seem to be caused by that.

Neither restrictive zoning, nor the administrative bloat in academia that caused tuition to skyrocket, were lobbied into existence by people like Bezos and Musk. They are result of tireless lobbying of relatively unimportant people seeking their own little rent.

nullocator an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Aren't most of the housing issues in this country NIMBYism and zoning? NIMBYism lead by vocal, wealthy property owners? Zoning controlled by governments lead and captured by wealthy and corporate interests?

BrenBarn an hour ago | parent [-]

Many of the NIMBY property owners are not nearly wealthy enough to be affected by most wealth tax proposals (e.g., the "few tens of millions" suggested in the article).

FireBeyond 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> nor the administrative bloat in academia that caused tuition to skyrocket

While, let's be clear, administrative bloat in academia is a very real issue, pointing to that as the true root issue is far more nebulous. Student loans being made non-dischargeable by bankruptcy meant that universities could afford to raise tuitions because lenders would be happy/ier to fund those loans because they will get their pound of flesh, even if it takes decades longer than designed.

rconti 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not well-versed in "cost disease", but yes, standards go up. Cars have to have airbags and backup cameras and infernal electronic nannies. So an (alleged) increase in safety has been mandated, and the costs are obligatory. IOW, your risk of dying in a car goes down, but it doesn't come for free.

Medical care is getting better, insurance is required to pay for more and more things, but that drives up insurance costs.

In my county, fire sprinklers are required in all new houses.

Costs go up, but at least, in theory, you're getting something in return.

You're welcome to blame the state. Without those actions, things would be somewhat more affordable. But it seems pretty clear from the data on inequality that inequality is a much bigger factor in bidding up living costs than the fact that I need to install sprinklers in my house, even if sprinklers are a very large cost relative to my income.

lovich 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> if it is even a problem at all.

One of the pillars of capitalism is that the entire economy is more efficient when decision making power is dispersed as close as possible to the people making economic decisions aka what they buy.

When we have ended up in a situation where a handful of people are making all the economic decisions because they have all the money, there is no functional difference between that situation and a command economy.

If you’re a believer in capitalism as a tool to eliminate scarcity you should view the existence of billionaires(adjust for inflation) over the longer term as policy failures that are eroding capitalisms ability to create more and more.

goatlover 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Politically wealth inequality is a problem as the wealthy have more means available to them to influence votes, candidates and appointments. So you have a society that's partly democratic but with a lot of unequal influence at the top.