| ▲ | Wi is Fi: Understanding Wi-Fi 4/5/6/6E/7/8 (802.11 n/AC/ax/be/bn)(wiisfi.com) |
| 66 points by homebrewer 2 days ago | 28 comments |
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| ▲ | niobe an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| An impressive attempt to summarise Wi-Fi which is a very deep topic. However I think the executive summary already missed the most critical thing about Wi-Fi: only 1 transmitter at a time per channel - across all WLANs, yours and your neighbours, with no deterministic way to avoid collisions. It's a shared medium and it's not even half duplex, unlike the dedicated full duplex you would typically get with an ethernet cable to a switch port. The fact that Wi-Fi achieves what it does with this limitation, and how it co-ordinates the dance of multiple unknown clients using the same medium - and in the presence of other RF technologies to boot - is indeed an incredible technology story, but this achilles heel is the single most defining thing about Wi-Fi performance. |
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| ▲ | Onavo an hour ago | parent [-] | | Well the newer WiFi standards on 6Ghz support a lot more channels. Not a perfect work around by any means but it does significantly reduce congestion. | | |
| ▲ | niobe 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that helps quiet a lot in practice because in most places there's limited "frequency-domain" capacity (i.e. free channels) but plenty of "time-domain" capacity, (i.e. free air-time). So even if you are sharing a channel with 4 other APs and their users, everybody may subjectively feel the network is fast. When chopping up the time domain into nanoseconds there's just a lot of idle time available, even if clients are pulling down files at 600Mbps. But at a fundamental level, the channel space (~60 across all bands best case) is extremely limited but the potential growth in transmitters is unbounded. It's like a linear hack to an exponential problem. It seems to work at first, but under very high load conditions performance still degrades ever faster until it falls off a cliff. Then there's all sorts of complex dynamic behaviour like the hidden node problem to add to this, but it all boils down to needing air-time and SNR. |
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| ▲ | KingMachiavelli an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'd like to understand why the WiFi spec developed so slowly from G to N and finally to AC but now it's seems like a new version is released every other year yet many of the features/extensions are poorly implemented or have nearly 0 real world improvement. |
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| ▲ | niobe an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I would agree with that. G to N was perhaps the most critical move in Wi-Fi because it included MIMO. You can think of this as unwanted signal echoes and reflections being switched from a liability to a benefit. Heck, I _still_ run WiFi-4 networks and they perform very well. WiFi-5 was an incremental upgrade, with many experimental features that barely used in practice. 802.11 is in general a vast swag of cool tricks, and when enough ideas are thrown at a wall, many do end up sticking, but for the most part the benefits are cumulative. MIMO being one major exception. | |
| ▲ | crims0n an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Surely some of that was need. When G was dominant from around 2004-2009 the theoretical maximum was 54mbps… most people were still on DSL or cable at the time, often capping out way below that. | |
| ▲ | dylan604 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Does any of it have to do with the spectrum becoming available? After 2.4GHz and 5GHz, I have no idea what else the latest/future gens of WiFi are using. As some tech like 2G is no longer in operation, that spectrum was opened up. There are other frequencies that have become available where operating the older equipment that used to operate there is a big no-no now. There was a frequency range used by old wireless microphone systems that are banned at locations. Just taking a swing at it, but I don't play that sport so probably a big whiff | |
| ▲ | Avamander 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's all very proprietary and the tooling is ass, there's a lot of wasted effort creating and testing out the same stuff. Bluetooth is just as horrible for the same reasons. |
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| ▲ | anyfoo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Wi-Fi signal strength decreases at an exponential rate as you move further away from a router. This is surprising to me. I'd have guessed it decreases quadratically (i.e. due to the inverse square law), not exponentially. The paragraph below seems to contain an explanation, but I don't really understand it (namely because I don't know what that percentage "Coverage" column actually means, or what we mean with "the total distance at each QAM step"). |
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| ▲ | niobe 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | So that table is using distance as a proxy for signal to noise ratio. SNR is what really matters. Each data rate in the standard uses a different encoding technique. "Faster" encoding techniques cram more data into a given transmission interval but require a higher signal to noise ratio to be received without error. Since SNR declines with distance you can have a rough idea at what distance from a transmitter you will be able to receive at what data rate. However, people and vendors focus far too much on maximum throughput. I've seen data showing that even in the best conditions, clients spend about 1% of their time transmitting or receiving at the highest data rates. Because they are dynamically adjusting the data rate based on the perceived SNR. Individual clients' peak throughput also works against _aggregate_ throughput when talking about wireless networks with multiple users. If you have 100 clients, do you want one to be able to dominate the others or everyone get a more or less equal share? These peak speeds assume configurations that I would never deploy in practice, because they favour individual users and cripple aggregate throughput - things like 160 MHz wide channels. But the sticker speed is what sells.. | |
| ▲ | esafak an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law Because the variable is the base, not exponent. | | |
| ▲ | anyfoo 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I know what "exponentially" means, I know what "quadratically" means (and how it's not exponentially), and I know the inverse square law. Hence my question why the article claims "signal strength" decreases exponentially, when the raw power received by an antenna definitely decreases quadratically, not exponentially. That's just physics. But there might be some convoluted thing about stepping down symbol rate which affects throughput (which I guess could be colloquially called "signal strength" if I squint really hard) that I don't understand here. |
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| ▲ | wonnage an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | yeah, it's pretty common to refer to x^2 as exponential colloquially since there's A. an exponent B. a single term for all values (vs. quadratic, cubic, quartic...) But you're technically correct! | | |
| ▲ | anyfoo an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm actually not sure that they don't actually mean exponentially. There's something about not only increasing the distance, but potentially also the modulation (and thus the symbol rate) stepping down, which maybe in total causes the decline to be ~exponential? But it's not clear to me at all. That's why I ask, I have a hard time parsing it. But then again, the sentence uses the term "signal strength", not "throughput", so that would suggest quadratically. But I guess "signal strength" could be meant colloquially and mean more than just the raw signal power received by the antenna, here. It's all very fuzzy to me, as it stands. | |
| ▲ | amluto an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you also think that f(x) = x^1 is exponential? How about f(x) = x^0? | | |
| ▲ | anyfoo an hour ago | parent [-] | | Kind of irrelevant, because you could also ask "Do you also think that f(x) = x^1 is polynomial? How about f(x) = x^0?" The distinction was clearly between polynomial (specifically quadratic) and exponential, leaving those trivial cases out. |
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| ▲ | Normal_gaussian 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Today I set up a NWA210BE (Zyxel) to replace a unifi 6+ AP; I bought it second hand and my key metrics were: 4x4 MIMO, available used/discounted, current gen, fully functional standalone mode. The 4x4 makes all the difference. Sitting in my car the 6+ would fight with my 4G for internet and cause maps to be super slow; now I'm off the property before its unusable. I had intended to put APs in multiple rooms, but there doesn't seem like much point now. |
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| ▲ | monk_grilla 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Anyone know of a similarly excellent resource for understanding wired networking? CAT specifications, how to pick high quality switches/routers etc.? |
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| ▲ | Havoc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nice detailed article! Finding it increasingly difficult to avoid bottlenecks though. Even with wifi 7 I still get 1.3 on my mac and 0.5 on iphone. More than enough realistically, but upstream internet is 1.7 so tiny bit unfortunately Think I'm just going to wire the place with 10 gig fiber >The speed advantages that Access Points have over mesh systems will become much more obvious with Wi-Fi 7. From what I've read mesh devices generally can detect when they've got wired backhaul so they can stay in mesh mode for the clean handovers while not relying on it for actually moving data |
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| ▲ | anyfoo an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Due to boring circumstances outside of my control, I have to use WiFi for the most part, so I've got quite some experience with making it run optimally (or rather, as optimally as I managed to, not as optimally as I would like it to). And yeah, you pretty much already have to have a visible line of sight to get anything even close to 1 Gbps. And still be on channels with little interference. (DFS helps if you're not near radar, which intentionally causes you to get kicked off those channels and lose connection entirely.) And even then you might have to mess about a lot with positioning, because of reflections and generally multipath propagation. I'd say it's not worth the headache. I would love to lay down Ethernet cable, even if it was just cabling only suitable for 1 Gbps (for which there's no good reason to, might as well do 10 Gbps). But yeah, any mesh system worth its salt figures out the topology and absolutely favors wired links over WiFi for the back haul. Anything else wouldn't make any sense at all, there is basically no situation where you'd prefer an RF channel over a wire, unless the wire is maybe made of wet string. | | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | how many spatial streams are you using (2x2, 3x3, etc) and are you using an 80 or 160 MHz channel? If you have a set of full capability 802.11be clients you'll see the best performance with a 3x3 AP and 160 MHz channels. |
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| ▲ | WillPostForFood an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I was on top of G, started to lose track after N. |
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| ▲ | Neywiny 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Good to see the subjective adjectives in the RF world are here too. Except they're not the same ordering, as EH is before UH for WiFi but after in RF |
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| ▲ | ibatindev an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Once again, IEEE 802.11ah -Wi-Fi HaLow-, completely forgotten. This one would be perfect for all the lights/sensors. |
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| ▲ | Avamander 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There aren't any usable chipsets with usable drivers for 802.11ah unfortunately. | |
| ▲ | walrus01 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Latest-gen zigbee stuff and zwave 800 seems to have already thoroughly occupied that niche for a great deal of home and office automation equipment. |
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