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| ▲ | bsder 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > That's not to say it's an easy problem to solve. Incorrect. You simply decide that having less than 5 suppliers at any level is unacceptable and you bust companies up, repeatedly until you have those suppliers. That way when one goes bankrupt, you don't wind up with complete supply chain disintegration. The solution is quite straightforward. However, it requires an electorate that has a couple of brain cells to rub together in order to understand the solution. And 30% of the US is willfully hostile to any real solutions while another 30% is happy to fiddle while everything burns. | | |
| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You simply decide that having less than 5 suppliers at any level is unacceptable and you bust companies up, repeatedly until you have those suppliers. This is a very extreme solution, and eliminates many of the benefits from horizontal integration even when the benefits are passed onto customers. Consider: - insurance companies - banking - utilities It’s also hard to implement. What counts as a supplier? Is Google the sole supplier for search functionality? If 4 suppliers provide 1% of demand, and one supplies 96%, does that comply? If there’s only one company offering some new service (e.g. driverless cars), do they immediately get broken up? | | |
| ▲ | bsder 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > do they immediately get broken up? Yes. Always. At all levels. I might provide a limit below which that doesn't happen (like $50 million in revenue), but as soon as you cross that limit, scrutiny should be automatic. > This is a very extreme solution, and eliminates many of the benefits from horizontal integration even when the benefits are passed onto customers. Consider: - insurance companies - banking There is no advantage to horizontal integration for consumers in those industries. If anything, the value is negative. The fact that people are quite a bit happier about credit unions than Chase says everything you need to know. Sure, there are "efficiencies" to be gained by horizontal integration. What we have seen is that the horizontal integration is so strong that the industries are sclerotic in the face of crisis or change (see: toilet paper manufacturers in Covid who couldn't switch gears). It has become repeatedly clear that we need resilience and competition more than we need efficiency. > utilities Should be limited to natural monopolies and strongly controlled by the government. We have seen what happens when you create hybrid-type utilities that try to have some existence in the market (rather than being solidly government regulated) and the result is poor (see: PG&E). | | |
| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There is no advantage to horizontal integration for consumers in those industries. If anything, the value is negative. The fact that people are quite a bit happier about credit unions than Chase says everything you need to know. IMO this claim is just too strong. I think you'd end up breaking up (or trying to) Lloyds of London, Spacex, Fedex, DHL, Boeing, Panasonic, ASML, Google, Apple, and many other very specialized companies. These businesses would be very expensive if they could only supply 1/5 of the market, to the point that many people would be totally priced out. The world can barely support 1 ASML, imagine if we had to pay for 5 of them. We'd be sent back to the 2000s, and that's _just_ computing. | | |
| ▲ | bsder an hour ago | parent [-] | | > I think you'd end up breaking up (or trying to) Lloyds of London, Spacex, Fedex, DHL, Boeing, Panasonic, ASML, Google, Apple, and many other very specialized companies. I see exemplars and no counterexamples. Boeing turned to garbage when it took on McDonnel-Douglas--we were better off with the separate companies. YouTube not being bought by Google means that you don't have a single giant ad juggernaut and the copyright infringement that goes along with it. Apple being busted up means we have a division that actually focuses on computers in their own right rather than being a vestigial graft to the phone services division. Fedex was enough of a monopoly problem that Amazon bought carriers and, very painfully, set up its own delivery system. > The world can barely support 1 ASML, imagine if we had to pay for 5 of them. So, you prefer that we are two Chinese drone strikes from having a chip economy meltdown? This is the kind of stuff that absolutely needs diversity. And part of the reason the ASML stuff is so expensive is because it doesn't have enough volume. So, for example, if the US had multiple fab lines that could consume the ASML machines, that would reduce the costs for ASML. |
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| ▲ | TimorousBestie 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Christopher Alexander figured this one out in A Pattern Language: https://www.patternlanguageindex.com/patterns/city-country-f... | | |
| ▲ | Tade0 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You'd have to either waste good soil by putting buildings on it, or use a lot of fertilizer. | |
| ▲ | bix6 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why didn’t we do this? Seems cool. | | |
| ▲ | boc 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Because it's like 1000x more efficient to move stuff on water vs land, so industrial cities clustered around ports and rivers since it's way easier to move stuff around. | |
| ▲ | zonkerdonker 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Big cities aren't typically in such an ideal planar geological setup as that. I'm having a hard time imagining how something like that would work in the Bay area, NYC, Seattle, Miami etc | |
| ▲ | sophacles 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because it trades most of the benefits of cities for the hassle of suburban life and less efficient food production. | |
| ▲ | HoldOnAMinute 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because of perverse incentives | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | To be fair, Alexander was writing in the seventies, long after automobiles and the suburb had killed any hope of humane urban planning in the States. |
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| ▲ | nradov 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bullshit. Christopher Alexander didn't know much about farming. I actually read his whole book. Most of his "patterns" are kind of quaint and twee, the sort of things that seem superficially attractive to people with no real domain knowledge. Highly overrated. | | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Utopian optimism really has fallen out of style, I suppose. | |
| ▲ | registeredcorn 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you see there being a realistic alternative? I realize we can't really go backward in time, but I would prefer if the farmers that lived close to where I am sold to people who live local to me. That can happen to some degree (open yard stands), and I like to do that for some of the smaller farms, but it's really a kind of "nice to have" rather than a "The market stocks stuff that was grown a town or two over" type thing. I feel like something probably got lost when that kind of arrangement went away. There's still one or two local businesses that manage to make it into the local market for me which is neat to see, but that's more so because they are for frozen pastries and stuff, and can prepare a metric ton in advance, and the market can mark it up for being a "local specialty" type thing. I like to buy them when I can afford it. It just sucks that essentially every other thing on a shelf probably wasn't even made in the same time zone or hemisphere. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why do we need an alternative? Your preferences don't matter. | | |
| ▲ | AnimalMuppet 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well, they matter some. They matter to registeredcorn. More widely, they matter in that farmers markets and roadside stands and such do exist. Why do they exist? Because there are enough people that want to buy from such places. I mean, it's never going to be the way that food is sold. But those preferences matter enough for niche markets to exist. |
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| ▲ | sophacles 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The thing you imagine has never really been true. Rivers, seas and canals and later railroads and highways have always brought food to the city from as far as it could be transported before it spoiled. Rome got its wheat from Egypt and its olive oil from around the Mediterranean. Ancient egypt sent food up and down the nile to population centers in Cairo and Thebes. And so on. | | |
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