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jerhewet 10 hours ago

Thank ghod I'm retiring in six months.

I'm very thankful I came of age during the golden age of personal computing. I was able to own my own computer(s) and earn a living writing software on them and for them. Fifty years was a good run, and I consider myself lucky to have participated in it.

IMO we've gone full circle: dumb terminals chained to mainframes and the whimsey of someone else's rules, restrictions, and rent-seeking, to my own bought-and-paid-for computer sitting on my desk that did exactly what I told it to do using software that never changed unless I wanted it to change, and now we're back to dumb terminals (browsers) that talk to mainframes (the cloud) that not only harvest and sell my personal information to the highest bidder but constantly change the rules and restrictions on my software and have gone back to renting me the software and pushing changes that I never asked for and never wanted in the first place.

I will never use spicy autocomplete for anything, and I find it depressing that people are being forced to use it in order to keep their job. I see a very dark future for computing if real skills are all replaced with garbage being vomited out by rules engines that harvested their "guess the next word" results from today's internet.

sph 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Good to see another Luddite (as they’d call us) on here! I am quitting tech in a month. I chose to go through 6 month of identity crisis, depression and reinventing my life after 20 years in software than having those bullshit generators imposed upon me to compete with those for whom thinking is démodé.

Meanwhile the front page is people complaining that using a particular word causes their evil genie to go haywire. You guys still call this stuff engineering? Writing requirements in prose, because programming languages are too hard? Fuck that, I’m out.

btschaegg 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies: Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

happytoexplain 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

True. Even Adams himself would have been sickened by GenAI.

RajT88 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Happy Service!

archagon 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Kinda funny that you're quoting a real author who would never in a million years have resorted to using slop generators.

"I strongly feel that this is an insult to life itself." -Hayao Miyazaki

raddan 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m not so sure. Douglas Adams was an avid technologist who worked on two interactive fiction games: the famously-cruel Infocom Hitchhiker’s Guide and Starship Titanic. I don’t remember whether there was anything free-form about the dialogue in the HHGG game, but Starship Titanic had many bots you could talk to. It was immensely fun, and I suspect he would have loved the ability to spin out dialogue a little more naturally.

On the other hand, the HHGG universe is just packed to the brim with deranged robots. Everybody loves Marvin, of course, but my favorites were the sycophantic ones like the elevators that sigh with pleasure upon delivering you to your destination. Adams always seemed to do perfectly anticipate the insanity of marketeers, and I expect that we’ll actually get some of this someday…

rurp 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A huge part of what attracted me to programming was how free and open it was. The fact that literally anyone with a computer could install Python/Javascript/etc for free and create virtually any software they wanted, limited only by their own abilities and determination, was wildly exciting to me. I would say empowering, if that weren't such a cheesy overused term. If you were any good at it, you could get a great job at an interesting company.

Now like you said we're entering a world where anyone with a computer can pay a giant tech company thousands of dollars a year to spin up some agents for them. That's much less exciting to me, and I'm certain I would not enter the field if I were just starting out right now (assuming there even was a junior job available).

We've seen how big tech monopolies treat domains they control like search and social media. They try to extract all of the value, leaving nothing for the individual or common good, and they're quite effective at it. I'm not looking forward to them gatekeeping the field of software development as a whole.

hmokiguess 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Going full circle is what we do, it's everywhere throughout human history. Actually, one could argue it's how life works. Nature has seasons to help life grow and be balanced. We're only starting to understand how this affects us in a larger scheme of things. Who knows, maybe we will wipe ourselves to dust and be discovered by the next iteration until we reach v1.0.0

dsiegel2275 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Take me with you, please.

raffael_de 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Where he goes, he has to go alone.

buffalobuffalo 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, that works for you since you're retiring. But for people still working in the industry, you adapt or die. As it's always been.

The fact of the matter is, a person working with a bunch of agents is a lot more productive than just a person. It makes research faster. It makes experimentation faster. It makes output cleaner. And this is true across many disciplines, not just tech.

Also, it is a skill. Yes, anyone can chat with an LLM. But understanding the optimal work flow for what to delegate and what to do yourself is difficult. Understanding the need for precision in the language used, and learning how to elegantly phrase things that were previously just abstract thoughts is absolutely a talent that can be refined.

If i had to guess, I'd say we'll probably see major breakthroughs across multiple disciplines within the next decade, largely because researchers and engineers can cover much more ground individually now, freed from the slow moving coordination mechanisms that team dynamics require. Pretty good for "spicy autocomplete" as you put it.

cmiles74 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are they? I remember when heavyweight IDEs where all the rage, there was a similar sentiment that if you weren't using one of them then you would eventually be so much slower that you'd be out of a job. It only took maybe five years until people started asking themselves if the dependency on a big IDE (and cost) was worth it. I don't think anyone would look at someone who prefers a stripped down text editor today and think they are backward or doing it wrong.

We have yet to see hard numbers on time saved by those who use LLM tooling extensively. It could be it doesn't turn out as compelling as we might expect.

Just sayin', I never forced software developers to use NetBeans or Intellij IDEA. I'm certainly not changing my tune and forcing them to use LLM tooling either.

classified 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

Maybe it depends. If what you want to build is one-shot crap anyway, then micromanaging LLMs to make them vomit what you need for that is "productive". I wouldn't know, because I prefer real work over the make-believe and leave the AI coding acolytes to be left behind and die when their ingenious plans explode in their faces.

bergie 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> a person working with a bunch of agents is a lot more productive than just a person

[citation needed]

I try LLMs for something every couple of months, and I have yet to see them produce anything actually correct. Calling non-existing library methods, confabulations, etc.

But sure, they produce a lot of stuff in a short while. The utility of any of that another question.

LaGrange 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I mean, that works for you since you're retiring. But for people still working in the industry, you adapt or die. As it's always been.

There are jobs outside of IT. They are harder, they have less benefits, they pay less. It's a whole project to switch your lifestyle so you can even afford them.

I know nobody who regrets making the jump. I hope to make it within this year. I'll be poor, but at least I won't work in IT.

> But understanding the optimal work flow for what to delegate and what to do yourself is difficult.

No it's not, you can learn it in less than a day. I've done it a few times while evaluating how much the agents have progressed (despite what people keep saying, not much).

> Understanding the need for precision in the language used, and learning how to elegantly phrase things that were previously just abstract thoughts is absolutely a talent that can be refined.

Some of us learned technical writing to communicate with _humans_ before, and we're sitting here alternating crying and laughing as y'all scramble to figure it out just to put all that into a hallucination machine.

eleventen 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> I hope to make it within this year.

What's your plan?

LaGrange 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Changing flats so it's cheaper (it's hard but still possible here), then go for an entry-level "barista" job.

It's gonna be very broke, but I'm not the first one in my friends circle to make the jump, so I have some support.

Edit: I probably will keep coding. Just... nobody else is ever going to see or use my code again.

raddan 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Why jump now?

If your worry is that you won’t be able to “keep up” and you’ll be laid off, or fired, just wait for that to happen. Keep making a paycheck until then. Then you can start your barista job.

If the problem is that you hate the work, then fine. But why barista? Fine, if that’s what makes you happy. But there are a million jobs out there _if you are willing to relocate_.

LaGrange 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Bluntly? Because working with y'all is becoming insufferable. Because I don't want to work in IT. Note this isn't "I don't want to program" or whatever. That's cool and fun. But the people in here? Oh gods.

Also I'm sick and tired of working on projects where the best social benefit from my work would be if I stopped. And IT has this talent of doing this to even most superficially useful projects. I worked on solar panel software that got turned into a scam by marketing. That takes a talent, of sort.

The best time to jump out of IT was to never get into it. The second best time is now.

As for why barista? People need food and drink and coffee is great.

joe_mamba 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Probably goose farmer https://www.linkedin.com/in/dryuan/

LaGrange 9 hours ago | parent [-]

That sounds quite expensive to start, to be honest. But if you can? Sounds fun.

mondomondo 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

raffael_de 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

joe_mamba 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

ThrowawayR2 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> "...EXACTLY what machinists were saying..."

I'm baffled by the stream of obviously hallucinated facts from AI promoters.

joe_mamba 7 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

happytoexplain 7 hours ago | parent [-]

The name-calling and vitriol of typical internet arguments doesn't belong here.

joe_mamba 7 hours ago | parent [-]

>The name-calling and vitriol of typical internet arguments doesn't belong here.

But his false accusations towards me belong here? So it's OK for me to be attacked, but not OK for me to respond back in equal fashion?

Also, I didn't call anyone names, "clueless" and "obtuse" are adjectives describing a person's observed behavior, not names, and I was very generic saying "some people" to not target and offend anyone specific since I believe in mutual respect.

Because if the person wanted to argue in good faith, he could have just said "I can't believe this, please post a source and go into detail", but he didn't, he immediately jumped to a personal attack with false accusations, in 100% bad faith. And you think I'm the one blame here, for simply responding in kind? Please.

happytoexplain 7 hours ago | parent [-]

He was being petty, but I wouldn't use the terms "name-calling" or "vitriol".

It's a very bad look, to put it lightly, to throw around the terms 'clueless', 'obtuse', and 'useless', and to tell people they will be replaced. In defense of anything, not just AI.

Edit: Interestingly, the parent was edited to be even more hostile since I commented (usually it's the opposite).

joe_mamba 7 hours ago | parent [-]

>He was being petty

Making false accusations is more than just "being petty".

>It's a very bad look

HN isn't a beauty pageant and I'm not running for office to value looks over facts. I call things as they are, no BS.

>to throw around the terms 'clueless', 'obtuse', and 'useless'

Then people shouldn't act 'clueless', 'obtuse', and be 'useless' if they wouldn't like to be called out for that. If someone see themselves as matching those descriptions, that then that's on them, nothing I can do about it.

>and to tell people they will be replaced

Well, if people can't do a google/LLM search before attacking people with venom, they ARE useless, and will 100% be replaced, since employers have no use for toxic people who can't use modern tools in the labor force.

And this isn't an accusation or something, this is simply the truth on how the labor market works. That's why there are so many unemployed/NEETs/homeless people. I don't want them to be replaced and unemployed, but they are/will be through their own actions/inactions. Again, nothing I can do about that, this is just how it is, and I'm just calling it out.

AlexandrB 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not about us older folk, but the computing environment itself. We're heading into a world of centralized control where your personal computer is mostly a "thin client" for a bunch of online services. Combined with omnipresent age/identity verification and you will basically need permission from someone to do anything interesting with a computer. Especially on the internet. This is in contrast to the 1990-2010 era where software was generally "buy once use forever" (plus kept working regardless of what politician you support online) and general purpose, open hardware was the norm. You could hook your homemade server up to the internet with a minimum of fuss and start running a service or forum or website or whatever.

There are plenty of bright kids out there, but they're going to be operating from a position of dependence on the OpenAIs, Googles, and Apples of the world if they want to ship a product.

joe_mamba 10 hours ago | parent [-]

>It's not about us older folk, but the computing environment itself.

Whether you like it or not, the computing environment of today is a product of the labor and financial participation of older folk of the past. Google, Facebook and Microsoft weren't built by Zoomers. Everyone contributed to the current state of things, either direct thought labor and fiance or indirectly by just using the products.

>We're heading into a world of centralized control where your personal computer is mostly a "thin client" for a bunch of online services

And who built those online services?

People make it sound like Azure, AWS, Facebook, X, etc were just snapped into existence one day by Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Musk, and aren't decades of labor by hundreds of thousands of workers who voluntarily did this in exchange for cash.

> This is in contrast to the 1990-2010 era where software was generally "buy once use forever" and general purpose, open hardware was the norm. You could hook your homemade server up to the internet with a minimum of fuss and start running a service or forum or website or whatever.

I know, but how does remanenceing help here? You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube same how you can't turn back housing affordability back to how it was in 1995, or bring back those lucrative union manufacturing jobs that could support a family from just bolting bumpers to a Chevy on an assembly line.

Those are all one-time things of the past now, never to return again in the same form. You have to work with the cards you've been dealt today, not moan about how much better the past was since that doesn't help anyone.

tristor 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That is not what the GP said at all. I am definitely not a Boomer, and I fully agree with them. They are lamenting the loss of control over your own general purpose computing system, and how our capitalistic society run by oligarchs is enforcing that through economic pressures. There is nothing in their comment that praises their hard work, intelligence, or claims younger people are incapable.

joe_mamba 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> our capitalistic society run by oligarchs is enforcing that through economic pressures.

Which the people retiring soon, like the one I'm replying to, helped build with their labor, funded with their investments to get rich and enjoy their 401ks, leaving the current generations holding the bag.

Nobody's innocent here. When Zuckerberg brought out his checkbook to poach engineers to build the Spybook 9000 social network, everyone flocked there without thinking, "hey, are we fucking up the future of the world?".

When people here were flaunting Crypto as the second coming of Jesus, they weren't thinking "hey, are we maybe helping people get scammed?"

Every past generation of workers has their own guilt in to how we got here to the present situation.

saltcured 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Nobody's innocent here.

I'm not as old as the GPP who is thankful to be retiring, but that's absurd. What would it take, in your mind, not to be complicit in this? Would we have to form militant groups who fire bomb datacenters and social media operators..?

We didn't all work for Facebook, nor any FAANG, nor embrace or hype the crypto scams. Hell, I abstained from using Facebook due to my principles.

I spent my career writing open source software, at academic salary levels. Though I'm not happy to end my career today, the AI agent stuff may well be the hill I retire on, if the mass delusion spirals hard enough and employers demand that I bend my principles.

tristor 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Oh, I fully agree with you that the Boomers completely fucked the world to advantage themselves and then pulled the ladder up for their kids and grandkids. But I don't think it's fair or reasonable to reply to a single individual by trying to foist the responsibility of an entire generation onto their shoulders, especially when they were not expressing any of the words you that were trying to put into their mouth.

bluegatty 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's a bit arrogant and borderline Luddite to suggest that 'your era was legitimate' and that somehow these new things which you don't understand are somehow 'lesser' or illegitimate.

In the long arc of history, I'm doubtful we'll see 'the last 50 years' as 'the Golden Age' - that's just a personal, contemporary romanticization. More than likely, the advent of computers -> web -> AI etc. will be one block of the 'informational industrial revolution'.

The people who made the ostensible 'Golden Era' were pioneers, just as those breaking new ground are pioneers today, it's honestly 'depressing' that people who consider themselves 'Engineers' wouldn't see that as clear as day, an be hopeful for the future on some level.

AI is very real phenom, obviously vastly over-hyped in many ways, and it doesn't feel nice to have to get caught up in a tectonic shift against one's will, but it is bringing about legitimate progress in every sense that the Engineers and Creators before us did.

In the exact same spirit as DaVinci or Babbage.

If one wants to keep a horse in the stable, or a typewriter around for posterity or any other reason that's fine, but not under the notion that somehow they are better or more useful.

happytoexplain 10 hours ago | parent [-]

The Luddites were rational. It's immature to use that word as an insult.

Nothing the parent said was arrogant.

bluegatty 9 hours ago | parent [-]

That the Luddites were acting on principle doesn't mean wouldn't use the term.

Also, if you want to 'go there' you could find a much better word than 'immature' to say what you're trying to say.

The OPs posture is not tonally arrogant, but it's it's definitely intellectually arrogate.

The OP claiming heritage of the 'Golden Era' which is a dramatic, egoic romanticization.

To place one's 'own story at primacy' above all others, insinuating that 'his skills' are those which are 'true and relevant' and that those using new tools are 'lesser' or 'not substantial' , and also grossly myopic to the truly great Engineering that's going on ... is arrogant and insulting frankly.

We can empathize with having to yield to a changing world, or being too out of scope to even fathom the 'new tech', but that's very different with saying that 'Frank Sinatra was the Only Great Singer, those that came after him had not talent'.

If it were the case, then fine, but it's obviously not. AI is a legitimate advancement that narrow minded people are struggling to fathom, and it's coming out in some ugly ways.

A true creator would probably take magnanimous position that after having made their contribution, they are sad to not be able to participate in what is maybe an even more substantial era of progress, and all of the wonders that will come of it.

Good gripes - we're all about to have robots in our homes (!) probably within 5-15, we're witnesses Sci Fi unfold in front of us ...