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The U.K. Smoking Ban Is Illiberal(theatlantic.com)
18 points by JumpCrisscross 15 hours ago | 63 comments
dusted 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I always thought it was an elegant and respectful solution. Instead of harassing existing addicts into quitting, ease out of general addiction by forbidding those who haven't yet had the opportunity to get addicted, yes, of course some will still be, but it will be vastly fewer than when it's illegal. It's different from weed in that, while it makes you look cool, it's simply nowhere near as fun..

Gud 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

Nowhere near as fun and 10 times as addictive. Although I do love to smoke pot, after all these years, Nikotine was a decade long habbit I wanted to quit for as long but couldn’t.

Although I don’t want to undersell the addictiveness of weed, like many people do, it is still psychologically very easy to form an addiction.

kelseyfrog 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I vehemently insist on the right of my fellow humans to smoke.

You still have the right to bodily autonomy. What sellers don't have is the right to sell something that kills their clients and has obvious consequences en mass.

Just grow your own tobacco, cure it, process it, and roll your own cigarettes. Think of it like building your own Linux distro. You always had that ability, but didn't exercise it. Now you can.

sir0010010 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

An important caveat I would argue is that your fellow citizens' bodily autonomy gives them the right to prevent you from smoking if it would cause them to breath in the toxic, addictive and carcinogenic smoke you would be producing secondhand.

justsomehnguy 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Just grow your own tobacco, cure it, process it, and roll your own cigarettes.

Just grow your own grapes, ferment them, distill them, and bottle your own whiskey.

Just raise your own cattle, slaughter them, butcher them, and prepare your own steak.

Just raise your own cows, milk them, pasteurize the milk, and produce your own cheese.

defrost an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Done all three, in complete honesty.

To be fair, you've left out

* Just build your own furnaces and make your own glass [check]

* Build your own aircraft [check]

* Fell trees for firewood and lumber [check]

* Make your own spear and catch your own food [check]

etc.

kelseyfrog 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's no natural right to be sold a product. It simply doesn't exist in reality, not part of the universe, and antithetical to natural law.

I could demand you sell me your clothes. Just as absurd.

mmarian 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just let the taxpayer funded healthcare system deal with the burden. See how you can go the other way too if you want to be objective :)

6510 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Not sure what you mean. Here smokers pay much more taxes than non smokers and they require much less health care.

6510 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cant, peasants aren't allowed to own land because it would be bad for the economy.

But I like the idea, no meat for people born after 2009.

Driving a car is also bad for the air. Cycling is much better.

vrganj 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, or... don't.

But don't expect other people to make everything easy for you. If you really want to, you can. Laziness is not an excuse.

cucumber3732842 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Acting like "well we're not banning it, we're just regulating it to the point that it's a non starter for 99.99% of people effectively acomplishing the same thing" isn't a ban is just calling people stupid with extra steps.

camgunz 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a particularly lazy article. I expected Friedersdorf to engage at least perfunctorily with drug laws or seatbelt laws, but no, just a bunch of trying to troll the libs.

Here's something else that's argument-destroying: the ban doesn't apply to the people born after 2009, it applies to anyone trying to sell them tobacco or vapes. This falls under the aegis of regulation (can't sell heroin either) and applies to all sellers regardless of race, age, sex, etc, so it's not even discriminatory. Claims destroyed, nice try token conservative at liberal outlet.

But finally, Friedersdorf talks about the dignity of making choices and dealing with the consequences. I'd love to see him make this argument to people dying slowly of COPD and emphysema, people with mouth, throat, and lung cancer, people who will die before meeting their grandkids, etc. Just, chilling detachment from humanity.

mytailorisrich 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A pack of cigarettes in the UK has a huge warning that smoking kills/causes cancer/etc with a shocking picture of a potential actual outcome, too. That's in addition to all the public campaigns about the risks of smoking.

The argument that smokers were victims who didn't know hasn't held any water for decades...

vrganj 9 hours ago | parent [-]

They're addicts. Whether they know it's bad or not is irrelevant.

If you ever struggle with addiction, you'll know that decision making is no longer well-reasoned or thought through. Such is addiction.

mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No, the addiction is irrelevant because you need to go over and ignore the anti-smoking campaigns and what's on the packs to become an addict in the first place. That's the point. It is a personal decision to start and it is a personal decision to continue (although it is of course not easy to stop once you are "addicted")

vrganj an hour ago | parent [-]

To start is a dumb decision one did at some point in the past. To continue is one that is no longer in your control once the addiction has taken hold.

It's not a personal decision to stay addicted. Let me tell you from experience. I wanted to stop. Yet, the cravings didn't let me until I had external forcing factors. Why should we deny other addicts that same help?

troad 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Here's something else that's argument-destroying: the ban doesn't apply to the people born after 2009, it applies to anyone trying to sell them tobacco or vapes. This falls under the aegis of regulation (can't sell heroin either) and applies to all sellers regardless of race, age, sex, etc, so it's not even discriminatory. Claims destroyed, nice try token conservative at liberal outlet.

This is a terrible argument. Imagine a law that prohibited ALL vendors, regardless of age, race, sex, etc from selling to people of a certain race. Would you claim that such a law is not discriminatory, because it affects vendors of all races equally?

> particularly lazy article

> just a bunch of trying to troll the libs

> Here's something else that's argument-destroying

> Claims destroyed, nice try token conservative at liberal outlet

> Just, chilling detachment from humanity

I don't agree with CF on many things, including this smoking ban, but I'd point out these kinds of flourishes do nothing but weaken your overall point.

camgunz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> This is a terrible argument. Imagine a law that prohibited ALL vendors, regardless of age, race, sex, etc from selling to people of a certain race. Would you claim that such a law is not discriminatory, because it affects vendors of all races equally?

This isn't the same thing; race is a protected class; "birth year" isn't. Also is this a flourish: "This is a terrible argument"??? I welcome you to the land of polemics and hyperbole, united against the soul-eating bland vomit of AI compositions.

troad an hour ago | parent [-]

What you said is "it's not even discriminatory". Now you're moving the goal-posts to "protected class" (ie illegal discrimination versus legal discrimination).

I note that the US concept of "protected class" has absolutely no relevance to the UK; the British parliament is sovereign and not bound to care at all about whichever random characteristics are enumerated among America's "protected classes". (The roughest European equivalent is the ECHR, which prohibits discrimination "on any ground", making the idea of protected classes even more redundant in this conversation. The British Equality Act explicitly does mention age. Of course, none of this is really relevant. The British parliament has the power to make its laws as discriminatory as it wants, unlike in the US, under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty.)

A law that imposes a general obligation to discriminate against a specific group is obviously discriminatory, and no amount of juvenile word games makes it not so. The question isn't whether this is or is not discriminatory - it clearly is - the question is whether this discrimination is justified.

In thirty years, if this law stands as is, we'll have forty-seven year old men and women who cannot legally buy a product, and forty-eight year old men and women who can. We've not really had many laws like this before, so it's worth considering whether this discrimination is justified (or even workable). It's a good question, and one I don't have an answer for. It is also the question engaged in by CF in TFA, and a much more interesting question than the relatively much less sophisticated arguments you've very bombastically put forward.

> united against the soul-eating bland vomit of AI compositions

This seems like a total non sequitur to me. AI exists, so you don't have to comment in good faith? AI exists, therefore you get to couch bad arguments in overheated rhetoric? AI exists, therefore you get to deepen the partisan divide by lazily dismissing CF as a 'token conservative', when he's not even talking about a left-right issue?

clutter55561 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is stupid. Smoking has high social negative externality. It causes cancer to the smoker and to others around the smoker. Who pays for the treatment of those affected? All tax payers.

Want to die? Die fast, not in a way that waste everyone’s money, and don’t take others with you.

mytailorisrich 14 hours ago | parent [-]

In the UK it is forbidden to smoke in public places and the revenue from taxes on cigarettes is several times what the healthcare service spends on smoking-related illnesses.

So I'd say things are already exactly as you wish.

greggoB 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the revenue from taxes on cigarettes is several times what the healthcare service spends on smoking-related illnesses.

I'd be interested to see this - you have a source you can link for it?

mytailorisrich 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Google is still around: revenue is at £8 billion (Office for Budget Responsibility) and in decline, and NHS spending is at £2.6 billion in England, which is by far the bulk of the UK (NHS England).

greggoB 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"In 2024, smoking cost the public finances in England £16.5bn, more than double the £6.8bn raised through tobacco taxes." [0]

"The NHS’s expenditure on smoking-related health issues remains high, corroborated by the reported £20. 6 billion cost to public finances in the UK in 2022, with approximately £2. 2 billion attributed to the NHS" [1]

It seems NHS spending is only a part of the story. Also note that I'm only quoting cost to public finances, the overall societal costs are cited as being much higher.

[0] https://ash.org.uk/key-topics/the-economic-impact-of-smoking

[1] https://themaplesrehab.com/how-much-money-does-the-nhs-spend...

mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent [-]

First, you corroborate that my data are indeed correct.

Second, I debunked the argument that illness treatment is paid by the tax payer, when indeed the data show that this is not the case as tax revenue far exceeds cost

Then, adding fuzzier and fuzzier unrelated things and add them up all equally as "costs" (like a very widely defined "economic cost", and peolple do not exist to maximise their labour output) to tilt the balance the other way is not an honest take, it is fudging the numbers to fit a narrative.

Frankly that fits the overall thinking on this topic and others: people cannot decide for themselves reharding their own lives, things must be banned, dissenting opinions are "wrong" and must suppressed. And we are back to exactly what the article is about!

roryirvine 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Those "costs" clearly aren't zero, though.

Even if they don't die from a directly smoking-related cause, smokers experience more chronic illness than non-smokers, and it tends to start earlier in life. Non-NHS costs include sickness benefits, absences from work, and reduction in lifetime earnings. And then there are the opportunity costs from whatever else they might have spent the money and time on, not to mention what they might have achieved in life had they not developed emphysema in their early 40s.

It's certainly possible to argue about the exact figures, and ASH are hardly a neutral third-party. But it's more dishonest than not to pretend that they don't exist.

mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What cost is "loss of lifetime earnings" because you die early while still of working age? And cost to whom? (You're dead).

How can you add that like-for-like to actual financial cost to NHS? (Which was the otiginal issue of the discussion, remember?)

Shifting the topic and trying to add random things as "cost" is fudging the numbers, so dishoneest, indeed. It is obvious and I am hoping you see it, too.

Bottom line is that smokers do pay for the cost of their healthcare so this is a fair system and people can then make their own decisions regarding their own lives (which is what a free, liberal society is about).

greggoB an hour ago | parent [-]

> so this is a fair system

Well, no, the cost of their own smoking-induced illness isn't the only cost, as mentioned before what about the healthcare costs of people who pick up 2nd or 3rd hand smoke?

I think the point we are making thay you don't want to acknowledge is that the cost to society, healthcare or otherwise, simply cannot be made up for with sin taxes on cigarettes. If we tried that, a pack would need to cost like 10x or more of what it does now, and even then it's debatable.

mytailorisrich 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

Unless we have finer data, I would assume that 2nd and 3rd hand smoke is included in "smoking-related" so in the cost figure. It also has to be much less than actually smoking so will not massively change the NHS cost.

We have already established that healthcare costs are more than covered by existing tax.

Arguing and trying to make up additional "costs" is, again, just fudging the numbers and clutching at straws at this point...

Live and let live.

Dumblydorr 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Extraordinary claims require evidence, not snarky Google mentions. Spending amounts are for what specifically? Do those 2.6 billion account for second and third hand smoke? For smoking in pregnancy leading to problems?

mytailorisrich 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't make any extraordinary claims...

Most of the price of a pack of cigarettes in the UK is tax. It is fairly well known that revenue is higher than cost to healthcare service (NHS, which is funded via general taxation), and data are public and very easily found. My previous comment with data was indeed literally the result of two Google queries (revenue amd cost) and were from official sources, which I mentioned.

You don't like the data? Fine. You want to do your own detailed research and enlighten us? Fine. I didn't comment to be cross-examined to death...

greggoB 10 hours ago | parent [-]

This is HN, you should know to expect your comments will be scrutinized if not backed up by data. I provided an example in direct reply to your previous comment.

mytailorisrich 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I provided data although I commented that they were easily available because "what's your source" is the usual lazy retort.

This is hostile cross-examination, not discussion. I suggest you read the guidelines before saying things like "this is HN" (although you are right that this is a commom behaviour here).

armada651 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> So I'd say things are already exactly as you wish.

Except, you know, the "don't take others with you" part.

That is a crucial, fundamental part of liberalism that people often skip over. Everyone only seems to remember the "I have the freedom to do whatever I want" part and skip over the "until that freedom impedes the freedom of others" part.

mytailorisrich 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Absolutely, which is why smoking in public, offices, bars, restaurants, etc is banned...

hackable_sand 11 hours ago | parent [-]

So it logically follows that you don't have the right to sell cigarettes

Good job everyone!

erelong 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Personally I find it embarassing the U.K. is doing this but it's not surprising

Was pretty surprised to see the U.S. bump up smoking age to 21

These efforts seem like the opposite of progress and promote irresponsibility and dependence

busterarm 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they're trying to ban things that cause cancer, eating pussy is surely next.

calvinmorrison 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I love smoking cigarettes.

14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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ls612 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Of all the illiberal things that the UK has been doing the past few years this of all things is what is a bridge too far for the Atlantic? Apologies for the lack of decorum but lol. lmao even.

quickthrowman 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cigarettes exist solely to keep people smoking, they’re an insidious product. It’s a corporation weaponizing addiction to profit while causing cancer and COPD. You’re either addicted, or you aren’t. There are no pleasurable psychoactive effects, only relief from nicotine withdrawal. Humans are better off without tobacco, or cigarettes at least.

This solution at least lets the current addicts maintain their addiction, but there are much safer ways to get nicotine these days if you want it, lozenges, vapes, pouches.

watwut 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wait till you hear about trans issues there.

cumshitpiss 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

busterarm 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Liberalism left UK politics decades ago and their voters practically begged for it.

calvinmorrison 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I love smoking

fancyfredbot 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Shocking. They'll be banning cocaine and heroin next!

Scroll_Swe 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Dont really care.

Not in the UK but in Sweden. Smoking is already banned in restaurants, on train platforms, mostly all in public.

With health care being tax funded in regions, I dont want to pay for smokers bad health.

"oh but do you want to tax or prohibit unhealthy foods!!??"

Yes, first remove all drinks with sugar or heavily tax them. Not needed. Zero sugar drinks only.

2nd - price hike on snacks, chips, nuts, chocolate, "pick n mix" candy, sugar candy

3rd - BMI based health. Want any help for pain, surgery, whatever and your BMI is over 25? Lower it and you get it. Do you smoke? Stop. Do nicotine? Stop. Any hard drugs? Stop.

ianschmitz 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What did nuts ever do to you?

Scroll_Swe 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Nuts have good fats and are somewhat okay in a VERY moderate amount.

But they have a crazy amount of calories. Nuts are not a thing to snack on, if you eat more than one handful, but it is easy to eat an entire bag and at that point just eat chips.

"A small 1.5-ounce serving often contains 240–300 calories, while larger bags (e.g., 100g) can range from 570 to 750 calories."

subjectsigma 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> With health care being tax funded in regions, I dont want to pay for smokers bad health.

> 2nd - price hike on snacks, chips, nuts, chocolate, "pick n mix" candy, sugar candy

I love being proven right.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47848115

Scroll_Swe 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Its not happening but it is my whishlist.

Sweden does not have a sugar tax but Norway does, they go over the border to buy candy.

The big limit here is alcohol, over 3.5% is only able to be sold in special regulated stores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget

I assume you are american, must be very blackpilling to visit Sweden. Imagine living in a functional democracy and society where things work like public transport and holidays.

https://youtu.be/xrTTIYd2OyY?si=3ZVicQxgxzXhu4s9&t=27

subjectsigma 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I am American, I have never visited Sweden but I have visited Norway. The taxes on normal everyday things like food were as high as 25% and everyone I talked to expressed interest in America, either visiting or living there. I only know one person who moved from America to a Nordic country (Denmark) and she complained that everyone was racist and that it took several months to get an appointment for a root canal, during that time she just had to live with severe pain. I have zero desire to live in any Nordic country.

ls612 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am American and I visited Stockholm for a week last year. It was nice and pretty but boy oh boy was it stifling. Copenhagen was way more relaxed by comparison.

Scroll_Swe 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Scandinavia overall then, substitute that for Sweden in general :)

mrbukkake 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

yes very swedish response, aggressively conformist and narrow minded

Scroll_Swe 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I assume you are american, must be very blackpilling to visit Sweden. Imagine living in a functional democracy and society where things work like public transport and holidays.

https://youtu.be/xrTTIYd2OyY?si=3ZVicQxgxzXhu4s9&t=27

troad 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not OP, but I'm not American, have been to Sweden (and lived most of my life in countries with better public healthcare than Sweden), and I also think yours is an aggressively conformist take. I'm not sure what value it is meant to be adding to the overall conversation. Save it for Reddit next time.

Scroll_Swe 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm permabanned on Reddit unfortunately so I cannot participate in that site :(

I make a new account and it is immediately shadowbanned + real banned for evading in 24h. Even with a VPN. They are crafty.

Anyway Reddit is leftie infested too, so they don't like me ether but I liked some specific hobby and work subreddits.

As below said we have that hardcore protestant work ethic, not suitable for everyone. Only Germans do it better.

My point is we have a functional society, healthcare, public transport, schooling and world leading companies, one of the highest HDI in the world etc. We are just the best :)

busterarm 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Despite being supposedly secular societies, their protestant tendencies are quite strong. Many find it stifling.

American but speak Danish and almost moved there a couple of times.

11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
cindyllm 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]