| ▲ | ttul 7 hours ago |
| “Japan’s liberal land use regulation makes it straightforward to build new neighborhoods next to railway lines, giving commuters easy access to city centers. It also enables the densification of these centers, which means that commuters have more places they want to go.” This is the most important paragraph in the article. It can’t be overstated how ingenious Japan’s system of zoning is and how much this has benefitted their society in ways we can only dream about here in the West. |
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| ▲ | antirez 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| "West" when we talk about urban spaces, walk-accessible cities and public transportation is, IMHO, the wrong category. Europe and USA are very far apart. |
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| ▲ | ianm218 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Europe and USA are both huge places so it depends what you mean. If you compare major east coast cities - Boston, DC, and NYC to European metros like Paris/ Madrid/ Lisbon the biggest tax on the citizens is the same in that it’s impossible to build anything so a huge % of income needs to go to housing. | | |
| ▲ | yorwba 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Well, Japan isn't much different in terms of the share of income that goes to housing: https://housingpolicytoolkit.oecd.org/2.H_conso.html | |
| ▲ | zhdc1 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | East coast cities were built before modern building codes. Something that, for some reason, people in the states don't want to accept is that - when given the choice - the vast majority of people prefer living in dense urban environments. | | |
| ▲ | cmatza 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | OP addresses that.
Japan is not particularly dense, especially outside of core downtowns. You see the same dynamics in London and Paris. People do not "prefer to live in dense urban environments" by urbanist standards. They prefer to live in dense urban environments by North American standards, which can still be far less dense than urbanists really want. | | |
| ▲ | zhdc1 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > which can still be far less dense than urbanists really want. And this was my comparison? | | |
| ▲ | cmatza 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | May be an assumption on my part, but the language "people prefer to live in dense urban environment" is typical of urbanism-boosters - who definitely push a lot online that leads one to believe that anything less than inner Tokyo is unacceptable. |
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| ▲ | Spooky23 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Great point. Granted I’m approaching it from the perspective of a tourist or business traveler, but 6/6 of the European cities I’ve been in were fully navigable for my purposes via transit. I’d probably guess half or less in the US. Even in NYC or SFO, the metro areas are so large it really makes the success rates low depending on the trip. | |
| ▲ | chii 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | they might mean west of japan ;) | | |
| ▲ | margalabargala 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Go far enough and Japan is west of Japan, several times over. You can always keep heading west. |
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| ▲ | yulker 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One thing that is critical is that the country hasn't turned home ownership into an ever growing financial asset that is meant to carry the majority of one's wealth into perpetuity |
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| ▲ | bobthepanda 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well, it did at one point, it’s just that the crash that resulted was so nasty it disabused anybody of that notion. At the peak of the bubble era, just the land underneath the Imperial Palace had an estimated real estate value larger than the entire state of California. |
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| ▲ | darknavi 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A great video on the zoning laws in Japan if anyone wants to nerd out on them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlwQ2Y4By0U |
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| ▲ | savanaly 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >how ingenious Japan’s system of zoning is I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive? My bias/priors are that the simpler and truer statement is: it can't be overstated how beneficial more permissive zoning laws are to a society. |
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| ▲ | Tiktaalik 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There are other aspects beyond simply being more permissive. I recall reading for example that property transfer tax is remarkably less on bare land, enough so that when travelling in Japan you will regularly notice bare lots for sale, as it is beneficial for the seller to tear down a lot before they sell it. This sort of thing encourages churn of housing, and coupled with liberal zoning, enables an accelerated increase in denser building. Tbh it probably encourages lower construction costs since more people are doing construction. IMO in this whole conversation, whether discussing any jurisdiction not just japan, impacts of zoning is an over emphasized and tax policy under emphasized (ie. almost never discussed). | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I have a hard time believing that a tax code that incentives destruction in any capacity is a good thing. If the land is more valuable without a structure the current owner has natural incentive to do that, or someone else has incentive to buy, demolish and re-list. |
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| ▲ | nottorp 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | From what I remember, Japanese zoning allows small shops (there's a size limit) in any residential zone. That means no car trips when you run out of bread or milk. Smartest property of that zoning system IMO. | | |
| ▲ | infecto 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I also wonder how much the pressure filled culture of not standing out has something to do with this. My impression is Japanese are under a lot more pressure to not abuse the permissiveness of the zoning laws. | |
| ▲ | ttul 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You haven’t lived until you have experienced the Japanese Kombini (convenience store). | |
| ▲ | dgellow 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Fwiw that’s what we have in Germany, unless you live in remote places. You always have a Lidl, Aldi, or REWE you can walk or bike to. No idea what our local zoning laws are | | |
| ▲ | gpvos 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Even the smallest Lidl, Aldi, or REWE are not small shops in the sense meant here. | |
| ▲ | chmod775 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not really the same thing. They're much larger already than most stores you'd see in urban Japan. Think more in terms of small convenience stores ("Spätis" with daily necessities) everywhere. Typical distance to a store is maybe 500-1000m in Germany. In dense areas of Japanese cities it's closer to one store every 100m-200m. So in Germany it'd be a 10 minute walk, while in Japan most of your "walk" would be getting downstairs. The flipside of that is that selection is going to be limited compared to what you'd find in Germany. | | |
| ▲ | dgellow an hour ago | parent [-] | | I see. What you describe does seem to match what I experienced in NYC, Portugal, and Spain? Small supermarkets everywhere with a bit of a random selection of items |
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| ▲ | zbrozek 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's a big part of it. They also do zoning mostly at the federal level, meaning local opposition isn't relevant. | | | |
| ▲ | dangus 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sometimes permissive zoning laws don’t actually encourage positive urban development outcomes. Example: Texas Zoning has to both exist and be well-designed. | | |
| ▲ | graeme 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Texas zoning isn't nearly as permissive as Japan's. Setbacks are a big added requirement. Minimum parking requirements too though that is changing. But it would not be legal to build japanese neighbourhoods in Texas. | |
| ▲ | larsiusprime 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Texas zoning is only “permissive” relative to other states. Relative to Japan it’s quite restrictive. | |
| ▲ | zbrozek 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I bet you'd see natural market driven concentration around rail stations in Texas too, if they had a useful rail network. | | |
| ▲ | XenophileJKO 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | You might be surprised, look at Dallas. They have a pretty extensive rail network. | | |
| ▲ | Schiendelman 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Dallas does not have permissive zoning, even in comparison to a city like Seattle. |
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| ▲ | oliwarner 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ingenious? It's a system that endorses hyper-capitalism through sub-9m² kyosho jutaku. That isn't ingenious, it's battery farming. |
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| ▲ | mschuster91 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | 3eb7988a1663 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In New York, property values go up as they near transit lines. People want the option to use the public transit because it can dramatically improve access to the rest of the city. | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, no surprise there. Landowners profit without doing anything when the government builds out public transport. The problem is, the healthcare costs don't hit the parties responsible (i.e. governments and cheapskate landlords). |
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| ▲ | amunozo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I live a 3-minutes walk from a busy train station in Switzerland and I don't even hear the trains. I also happened to live just next to it (my windows facing the rails) and that was horrible. So it's just a matter of some space and noise barriers. | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > So it's just a matter of some space and noise barriers. And guess what's often hotly contested. Noise barriers tend to draw complaints because they ruin the sightline, are either ugly from the start or end up being "decorated" not by good art but quick throw tags. And landlords are often too much penny-pinchers to install decent windows unless you legally require them to, which is often impossible for already constructed buildings. The landlords don't have to live with the noise after all, and in overheated housing markets people are forced to live in what they can get. | | |
| ▲ | mjevans 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is my major problem as a renter in the US. The minimum code really is too minimum. The city ordinances also enforce high limits on walls in ways that preserve a baby boomer childhood era view of suburbs. It'd suck less if it felt like E.G. noise and environmental pollution ordinances were ever enforced. (Break up those parties and stop people from doing trash burns / crappy fires during burn bans which are pretty much always...) | | |
| ▲ | Schiendelman 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | If we relaxed our zoning, your low quality apartment would be much cheaper, and you would be able to afford something better. | | |
| ▲ | mjevans 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I do strongly agree about specific kinds of relaxing. * Clear and concise approvals process
* No more NIMBY BS
* Impact based assessment (similar to Japans)
* Possibly goals to encourage desired types of use (but not hard LIMIT beyond disallowed!)
While at the same time, the quality of built items should be increased. That is the minimum code should reflect a value that produces a good quality of life for those in the buildings at a reasonable expenditure of resources over the lifetime of the building. |
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| ▲ | kccqzy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your citations do not back up your claims. For example [3] was talking about immobility and poverty, but not about living near noisy traffic infrastructure. | |
| ▲ | renewiltord 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah there are all these studies but then the end result is that the Japanese are healthier overall so when the studies and the reality have opposite results you gotta go with the reality. | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's physical health, and is to a large degree explainable by healthier food. Mental health is atrocious across Asia. |
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| ▲ | mmooss 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Fight densification wherever someone tries to push it. What do you really mean? On that basis, we all would live on isolated farms on the prarie. Humans are social animals that live in groups, just like other primates. Humans like living in dense cities so much that they pay far more for much smaller spaces in the most dense cities. That doesn't make all density good but 'fight all densification' is not a real solution. When is it good and when bad? How much desnity in those situations? Those are some of the real questions. |
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