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avazhi 4 hours ago

[flagged]

dkural 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One of the attractions of a country for scientists and scholars, and visitors generally, is an atmosphere of freedom. The right to protest is a constitutionally protected right. He was well within his rights. The current administration is purposefully curtailing freedoms to intimidate ordinary people to keep quiet as they plunder the country. Google is now going along with it. Your advice is to just study and enjoy the experience, which is what most people do. Luckily there are others who can be loud for those who can no longer speak, their cities bombed and families killed; with the hope that the world will eventually notice and listen. Civic engagement, and a free press is one of the most important tools at our disposal to fight those who seek to exploit the weak - that is why every wanna-be dictator and corrupt politician is so keen to curtail these rights.

soganess 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, because the American ideal of our forefathers was FAFO?

This is embarrassing to admit, but I miss the halcyon days when folks were still nominally pretending to be free speech warriors.

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you are invited to visit someone's home, and you go, and say nasty things to the homeowner, you'll be tossed out despite your right to free speech.

If you're a guest in another country, act like a guest.

When I was living on a military base in Germany, I and my family were required to behave as a guest of the Germans. The military was quite strict about that.

I didn't have any issue with that. When I travel to another country, I behave as if I was their guest, which I was.

A couple times there were protests in a country I was visiting, and I stayed well away from them.

soganess 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A country is not a house. Conflating the legal framework of a nation-state with the etiquette of a private living room is a category error. As John Locke demonstrated when refuting the patriarchal theory of government, political power is fundamentally distinct from household authority. A private home is governed by the unilateral property rights of an owner; a republic operates via constitutional law and public rights.

Pretending the rules of a private domicile apply to a jurisdiction by analogy is a sleight of hand. It operates like arguing that because memory safety is a strict requirement in system architecture, we must ensure human memories remain uncorrupted. The domains function under entirely different mechanics. A non-citizen in a public space is constrained by statutory law (and our statutory law is based on our understanding of inherent freedoms), not the etiquette of a houseguest.

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Analogies are never perfect.

The point remains, however. If you're here on a visa, the visa can be revoked, and you can be ejected. Revoking a visa is not a criminal sanction and not a violation of your rights, as there is no right to a visa. Your citizenship cannot be revoked.

wahern 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The maxim, "a government of laws, not of men" means state power should be exercised according to consistent principles and policy even beyond the letter of the law, not at the whim of bureaucrats or even leadership. Because it's generally impossible to draft laws to enumerate every possible scenario, contingency, and condition, statutes tend to nominally grant powers broader than for the purposes intended, even when there's no intent for them to be applied beyond the original purpose. For practical and procedural reasons courts typically only safeguard this principle by looking to whether the law nominally grants a power to do something, rather than if the power is rightfully exercised under a more wholistic and detailed interpretation of the laws, but the principle is still enshrined in US organic law, and in jurisprudence generally. Courts often do scrutinize exercises of state power to determine whether they violate this principle, but which applications are scrutinized tend to be a function of contemporary political debates and a courts ideological makeup.

These deportations are an interesting study in how this plays out, because historically immigration and, especially, deportations is an area of law where the usual rule pertains. But free speech is the complete opposite, where for the past 100 years courts are much more scrutinizing; indeed, precedent in free speech case law requires explicit, deliberate, and fine-grained application of varying levels of scrutiny in each, individual case, a process which is quite exceptional even in cases involving constitutional powers and rights.

It's worth pointing out that prior to the modern legal era, free speech law was quite different, both nationally and at the state level. Regulations and applications of regulations that incidentally impinged upon speech, but which otherwise clearly derived from legitimate state powers, received very light of any scrutiny. Regulation of commercial activity, for example, usually would not be considered to violate free speech rights even if it prohibited certain speech outright, so long as enforcement was nominally directed at commercial activity per se.

WalterBright 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't pretend to be a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that revoking a visa is not a criminal sanction, and the Dept of State has broad discretion wrt visas.

The person who wrote the article was at a protest. I presume he was identified as being there via his cell phone. Then, being a visa holder, he was investigated for being a security risk. He evidently was not deemed to be one, his visa was not revoked, and he was not charged with anything.

BTW, I'd be spooked, too, if federal agents arrived at my door to question me.

pseudalopex an hour ago | parent [-]

> I don't pretend to be a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that revoking a visa is not a criminal sanction, and the Dept of State has broad discretion wrt visas.

Their 1st sentence said clearly bureaucrats or even leadership should not have broad discretion I thought. And they did not say criminal sanction. What did you think implied it?

pseudalopex 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Analogies are never perfect.

This was a fallacious excuse for a fallacious analogy.

> Revoking a visa is not a criminal sanction and not a violation of your rights, as there is no right to a visa.

They mentioned inherent freedoms. They believed rights and laws are different seemingly.

> Your citizenship cannot be revoked.

Your citizenship cannot be revoked possibly. Others can.[2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47537839

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturalization

dkural 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Different rules apply to members of the military stationed on a treaty-based foreign military base.

However, as a thought experiment, let's go with your flawed analogy: Even then, this person was acting like a guest -- it is a long-cherished American tradition to exercise our constitutionally-protected right to free speech, assemble, and yes, protest. Nothing's more American than speaking against Government oppression and overreach.

The government is not your owner. The government is not your father. You are a participant in the affairs of your country, and take responsibility in its direction. Civic engagement and right to protest are important tools to make our government accountable. These are fundamental American values. And you're welcome to bring friends. It's legal.

WalterBright 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Different rules apply to members of the military stationed on a treaty-based foreign military base.

Members of the military and their families stationed in a foreign country are required to behave as guests of the host country. This is not a joke and is not taken lightly by the command. Also, an officer who cannot control the behavior of his family is not fit to be an officer.

Maybe things have changed since I was a boy, but I hope not.

dkural an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I agree with you - I was saying that members of the military & their families have treaty-defined standards of being in the country & thus required to behave a certain way, whereas a regular visitor or student visa comes with a different set of rules and not regulated by a military cooperation treaty.

LtWorf 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> This is not a joke and is not taken lightly by the command.

You can murder 20 people and not even go to jail if you are in the US army in an european base.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidente_della_funivia_del_Ce...

marcosdumay 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Restricting the protest rights of non-citizens is an extremely heavy-handed policy.

Yes, I know it's widespread, but it should really apply to non-residents. People that live and work in a country should have the right to protest.

WalterBright 2 hours ago | parent [-]

They have a right to protest. They don't have a right to a visa. The State Department has broad authority to revoke visas.

marcosdumay an hour ago | parent [-]

Democratic governments don't have the right to do things just because they want.

It's part of what makes it a democracy.

guywithahat an hour ago | parent [-]

And in this case, the people gave the state department broad authority to remove people on visas. Why would you want someone to travel to this country to protest? Would we want Putin sending people over to protest against our involvement in the Ukraine war? Would you want China sending over protesters to reduce tariffs?

A core of democracy is a finite pool of voters, and infinite immigration and foreign protests are a direct threat to our democracy in a way that removing someone on visa isn't.

keeda 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think this is common sense advice rather than a philosophical stance about free speech, said advice being generalized as "When in a foreign country, avoid trouble." As an example, if you visit China and start FA about Tibet, you will FO pretty soon, no matter how right you are about free speech.

Yes, this case is a travesty, but that does not change the soundness of the advice.

avazhi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find the idea of a non citizen protesting and causing social unrest diabolical. Most international students, (whether studying in the US or Europe or Australia or Malaysia or indeed anywhere else) understand that their visa does not grant them the same substantive rights that citizens of a country get. That’s as it should be.

I couldn’t care less about a non citizen’s non existent free speech rights, nor would I expect to be provided rights exclusively afforded to citizens of a country in which I was visiting. Some of you guys have clearly never travelled outside your home countries.

pesus 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is nothing in the constitution limiting the 1st amendment to only citizens.

WesolyKubeczek 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I applied for a visa and crossed borders enough times to remember this: visas can be refused and revoked for any reason at all. And a border guard is within rights to deny you entry for any reason whatsoever.

Understanding these things made my life much easier.

avazhi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The US Constitution limits the legislature's ability to pass laws restricting speech. The Executive revoking a noncitizen's student visa does not breach that Constitutional protection.

soganess 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

izacus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can follow the ideal of your forefathers by changing those abusive evil laws. Instead of demanding that foreigners risk their head in protest.

avazhi 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

I mean, I’d rather foreigners who demonstrate and cause civil unrest not visit my country - seems like a lot less trouble for everybody that way.

When in Rome.

nailer 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I could imagine someone arriving after independence and advocating against the new government, insisting that they return to King George, would indeed Find Out.

traderj0e 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, US companies need to comply with US laws, but there wasn't any legal demand here to hand over the data.

tantalor 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There was an administrative subpoena, which was not signed off by a judge, but does carry significant legal weight.

The Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) and Stored Communications Act (SCA) requires service providers to disclose certain types of data (IP addresses, physical address, other identifiers, and session times and durations) in response to an administrative subpoena. The actual content of communications is excluded.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2703

lm411 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> the idea of attending public protests/riots, particularly any directed against the governments that issued me my student visas, sounds like possibly the stupidest move

You'd get a real kick out some of the protests in Canada then.