| ▲ | capitol_ 5 hours ago |
| Finally encrypted client hello support \o/ |
|
| ▲ | 1vuio0pswjnm7 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| Until CDNs enable ECH on their servers this makes little practical difference The reason there's been no ECH available for public use is not because the software does not exist |
|
| ▲ | bombcar 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is this something that we can enable "today" or is it going to take 12 years for browsers and servers to support? |
| |
| ▲ | arcfour 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | CloudFlare has supported it since 2023: https://blog.cloudflare.com/announcing-encrypted-client-hell... Firefox has had it enabled by default since version 119: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/faq-encrypted-client-he... so you can use it today. | | |
| ▲ | 1vuio0pswjnm7 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | "... so you can use it today." What if he wanted to use it for requesting blog.cloudflare.com ;; ANSWER SECTION:
blog.cloudflare.com. 300 IN HTTPS 1 . alpn="h3,h2" ipv4hint=104.18.28.7,104.18.29.7 ipv6hint=2606:4700::6812:1c07,2606:4700::6812:1d07
Where are the ECH configsFor example, ;; ANSWER SECTION:
test.defo.ie. 300 IN HTTPS 1 . ech="AEb+DQBCqQAgACBlm7cfDx/gKuUAwRTe+Y9MExbIyuLpLcgTORIdi69uewAEAAEAAQATcHVibGljLnRlc3QuZGVmby5pZQAA"
or ;; ANSWER SECTION:
cloudflare-ech.com. 300 IN HTTPS 1 . alpn="h3,h2" ipv4hint=104.18.10.118,104.18.11.118 ech="AEX+DQBBpQAgACB/RU5hAC5mXe3uOZtNY58Bc8UU1cd4QBxQzqirMlWZeQAEAAEAAQASY2xvdWRmbGFyZS1lY2guY29tAAA=" ipv6hint=2606:4700::6812:a76,2606:4700::6812:b76
| |
| ▲ | bombcar 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://tls-ech.dev indicates that Safari doesn't support it, but Chrome does. | | |
| ▲ | altairprime 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | That’s likely due to iOS/macOS not supporting it in production-default-enabled yet; there’s an experimental opt-in flag at the OS level, but Safari apparently hasn’t (yet) added a dev feature switch for it. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/sec_proto... Presumably anyone besides Safari can opt-in to that testing today, but I wouldn’t ship it worldwide and expect nice outcomes until (I suspect) after this fall’s 27 releases. Maybe someone could PR the WebKit team to add that feature flag in the meantime? |
|
| |
| ▲ | kro 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nginx mainline 1.29.x supports it.
So once you get that and also the openssl version on your system, good to go.
Likely too late for ubuntu 26.04, maybe in debian 14 next year, or of course rolling release distros / containers. But, in a personal/single website server, ech does not really add privacy, adversaries can still observe the IP metadata and compare what's hosted there. The real benefits are on huge cloud hosting platforms. | | |
| ▲ | Bender 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | FWIW Nginx 1.30 [1] just released and supports it so most distributions will have support as soon as those responsible for builds and testing builds push it forward. "Nginx 1.30 incorporates all of the changes from the Nginx 1.29.x mainline branch to provide a lot of new functionality like Multipath TCP (MPTCP)." "Nginx 1.30 also adds HTTP/2 to backend and Encrypted Client Hello (ECH), sticky sessions support for upstreams, and the default proxy HTTP version being set to HTTP/1.1 with Keep-Alive enabled." But, in a personal/single website server, ech does not really add privacy, adversaries can still observe the IP metadata and compare what's hosted there I don't quite follow. I have dozens of throw-away silly hobby domains. I can use any of them as the outer-SNI. How is someone observing the traffic going to know the inner-SNI domain unless someone builds a massive database of all known inner+outer combinations which can be changed on a whim? ECH requires DOH so unless the ISP has tricked the user into using their DOH end-point they can't see the HTTPS resource record. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47770007 | | |
| ▲ | ameliaquining 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not that adversaries can directly see the domain name; this doesn't have anything to do with domain fronting. The issue is that ECH doesn't hide the server's IP address, so it's mostly useless for privacy if that IP address uniquely identifies that server. The situation where it helps is if the server shares that IP address with lots of other people, i.e., if it's behind a big cloud CDN that supports ECH (AFAIK that's currently just Cloudflare). But if that's the case, it doesn't matter whether Nginx or whatever other web server you run supports ECH, because your users' TLS negotiations aren't with that server, they're with Cloudflare. | | |
| ▲ | Bender an hour ago | parent [-] | | I can't speak for anyone else but I think I can work around that by moving the site around to different VPS nodes from time to time. I get bored with my silly hobby sites all the time and nuke the VM's then fire them up later which gives them a new IP. I don't know what others might do if anything. If I had a long running site I could do the same thing by having multiple font-end caching nodes using HAProxy or NGinx that come and go but I acknowledge others may not have the time to do that and most probably would not. | | |
| ▲ | ameliaquining 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Anyone who wants to track your users can just follow the IP changes as they occur in real time. | | |
| ▲ | Bender 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Anyone who wants to track your users can just follow the IP changes as they occur in real time. That's cool. There is always the option to put sites on a .onion domain but I don't host anything nearly exciting or controversial enough. For text that's probably a good option. I don't know if Tor is fast enough for binary or streaming sites yet. No idea how many here even know how to access a .onion site. |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | ekr____ 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even if the browsers and servers don't support it, you could still enable it because the system is designed to be backward compatible. | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | TLS (the IETF Working Group not the protocol family named for them) have long experience with the fact that if you specify how B is compatible with A based on how you specified A and ship B what you did won't work because the middleboxes are all cost optimized and don't implement what you specified but instead whatever got the sale for the least investment. So e.g. they'd work for exactly the way you use say TLS 1.0 in the Netscape 4 web browser which was popular when the middlebox was first marketed, or maybe they cope with exactly the features used in Safari but since Safari never sets this bit flag here they reject all connections with that flag. What TLS learned is summarized as "have one joint and keep it well oiled" and they invented a technique to provide that oiling for one working joint in TLS, GREASE, Generate Random Extensions And Sustain Extensibility. The idea of GREASE is, if a popular client (say, the Chrome web browser) just insists on uttering random nonsense extensions then to survive in the world where that happens you must not freak out when there are extensions you do not understand. If your middlebox firmware freaks out when seeing this happen, your customers say "This middlebox I bought last week is broken, I want my money back" so you have to spend a few cents more to never do that. But, since random nonsense is now OK, we can ship a new feature and the middleboxes won't freak out, so long as our feature looks similar enough to GREASE. ECH achieves the same idea, when a participating client connects to a server which does not support ECH as far as it knows, it acts exactly the same as it would for ECH except, since it has neither a "real" name to hide nor a key to encrypt that name it fills the space where those would fit with random gibberish. As a server, you get this ECH extension you don't understand, and it is filled with random gibberish you also don't understand, this seems fine because you didn't understand any of it (or maybe you've switched it off, either way it's not relevant to you). But for a middlebox this ensures they can't tell whether you're doing ECH. So, either they reject every client which could do ECH, which again that's how you get a bunch of angry customers, or, they accept such clients and so ECH works. |
|
|
| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Just be aware any reasonable network will block this. |
| |
| ▲ | Bender 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just be aware any reasonable network will block this. Russia blocked it for Cloudflare because the outer SNI was obviously just for ECH but that won't stop anyone from using generic or throw-away domains as the outer SNI. As for reasonable I don't quite follow. Only censorious countries or ISP's would do such a thing. I can foresee Firewall vendors possibly adding a category for known outer-SNI domains used for ECH but at some point that list would be quite cumbersome and may run into the same problems as blocking CDN IP addresses. | |
| ▲ | kstrauser 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Once upon a time, "reasonable networks" blocked ICMP, too. They were wrong then, of course, and they're still wrong now. | | |
| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Once upon a time, like today? ICMP is most definitely only allowed situationally through firewalls today. | | |
| ▲ | tredre3 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd say that ICMP is only situationally blocked by firewalls, not the other way around. Because I can ping almost any public server on the internet and they will reply. I can ping your website just fine and it replies to me! | |
| ▲ | kstrauser 13 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | That kind of cargo culted tradition is how you end up with weird packet loss and VPNs that flat-out refuse to work. I could be convinced to block inbound pings. Anything past that and I'd want solid evidence that it wouldn't break anything, with the expectation that it would. |
|
| |
| ▲ | quantummagic 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why is it "reasonable" to block it? | | |
| ▲ | vman81 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well, I may want to have a say in what websites the employees at work access in their browsers. For example. | | |
| ▲ | altairprime 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That’s not a meaningful issue here. Either snoop competently or snoop wire traffic, pick one. In the snooping-mandatory scenario, either you have a mandatory outbound PAC with SSL-terminating proxy that either refuses CONNECT traffic or only allows that which it can root CA mitm, or you have a self-signed root CA mitm’ing all encrypted connections it recognizes. The former will continue functioning just fine with no issues at providing that; the latter will likely already be having issues with certificate-pinned apps and operating system components, not to mention likely being completely unaware of 80/udp, and should be scheduled for replacement by a solution that’s actually effective during your next capital budgeting interval. | |
| ▲ | kccqzy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s usually done not on the network side but through the device itself. Think MDM and endpoint management. | | |
| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | A good solution is tackling it on both. At work we have network level firewalls with separate policies for internal and guest networks, and our managed PCs sync a filter policy as well (through primarily for when those devices are not on our network). The network level is more efficient, easier to manage and troubleshoot, and works on appliances, rogue hardware, and other things that happen not to have client management. | | |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | hypeatei 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Procrastinators. FTFY. Eventually these blocks won't be viable when big sites only support ECH. It's a stopgap solution that's delaying the inevitable death of SNI filtering. | | |
| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This will never happen. Because between enterprise networks and countries with laws, ECH will end up blocked a lot of places. Big sites care about money more than your privacy, and forcing ECH is bad business. And sure, kill SNI filtering, most places that block ECH will be happy to require DPI instead, while you're busy shooting yourself in the foot. I don't want to see all of the data you transmit to every web provider over my networks, but if you remove SNI, I really don't have another option. | | |
| ▲ | hypeatei 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Because between enterprise networks > require DPI Enterprises own the device that I'm connected to the network with, I don't see how you can get any more invasive than that. > countries with laws 1) what countries do national-level SNI filtering, and 2) why are you using a hyptothetical authoritarian, privacy invading state actor as a good reason to keep plaintext SNI? > Big sites care about money Yes, and you could say that overbearing, antiquated network operators stop them from making more money with things like SNI filtering. |
|
|
|