Remix.run Logo
senko 12 hours ago

If this sounds like basic advice, consider there are a lot of people out there that believe they have to start with serverless, kubernetes, fleets of servers, planet-scale databases, multi-zone high-availability setups, and many other "best practices".

Saying "you can just run things on a cheap VPS" sounds amateurish: people are immediately out with "Yeah but scaling", "Yeah but high availability", "Yeah but backups", "Yeah but now you have to maintain it" arguments, that are basically regurgitated sales pitches for various cloud platforms. It's learned helplessness.

operatingthetan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

When I was a consultant we would plan out 25 piece cloud deployments for little pie in the sky apps that would never see more than 200 users. Everyone has been trained that 'cloud' means a lot of expensive moving parts and doesn't stop to plan their deployments beyond that.

echelon 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Digital ocean has Kubernetes ffs.

It's all of five minutes to write a deployment yaml and ingress and have literally anything on the web for a handful of dollars a month.

I've written rust services doing 5k QPS on DO's cheapest kube setup.

It's not rocket science.

Serverless node buns with vite reacts are more complicated than this.

Ten lines of static, repeatable, versioned yaml config vs a web based click by click deploy installer with JavaScript build pipelines and magical well wishes that the pathing and vendor specific config are correct.

And don't tell me VPS FTP PHP or sshing into a box to special snowflake your own process runner are better than simple vanilla managed kube.

You can be live on the web from zero in 5 minutes with Digital Ocean kube, and that's counting their onboarding.

senko an hour ago | parent [-]

> It's not rocket science.

Neither is "apt install caddy".

Lalabadie an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

More and more, I'm seeing this issue with agents-based workflows as well. The training set is full (in quantity and in proportion) of codebases that are organized for very large teams, so that's what most prompted architectures lead to.

In my case I'm seeing it a lot on the front-end side. My clients end up with single-page apps that install Shadcn, Tailwind, React, React Router, Axios, Zod, React Form and Vite, all to center a some input elements and perform a few in-browser API calls. It's a huge maintenance burden even before they start getting value out of it.

These large setups are often a correct answer, but not the right one for the situation.

GorbachevyChase 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don’t forget that people involved in information technology procurement will pay very large sums of the company’s money to not have to understand anything.

kandros 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Cloud-native natives” had so much free plans that had no need to understand what a basic app really needs.

jayd16 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hmm backups seems like an important one.

andersmurphy an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Litestream [1] is quick to set up and has point in time backup to the second.

- [1] https://litestream.io

cj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Guys, we need to postpone our beta launch! We need another week to implement a backup strategy with point in time recovery!”

You don’t need backups until you have customers.

jayd16 3 hours ago | parent [-]

So go live without testing the backup in the beta at all?

cj 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes! Why build a backup process before you know you have data worth backing up.

tremon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The data recovery process needs to be validated too, preferably before customer data actually needs to be recovered.

jayd16 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why go live if you don't have a reasonable expectation of users?

Worrying about HA when you don't have customers that need it is one thing, but I wouldn't want to be in a place where I have to put a banner on the website asking users to please make a new account because we had an oopsie.

mamcx 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, and is super easy.

I do like this: cron to run the backup and then rsync to https://www.rsync.net, then an after script that check it was run and post to my telegram the analysis.

That is.

Scaled 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Another good option is Restic, since snapshots let you go back in time. That is useful in case you accidentally delete/break something and you're not quite fast enough to restore from backup before the next cron runs.

McGlockenshire 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And also incredibly trivial to fix. Most VPS providers include their own backup services, and for the rest there's rsnapshot and some other cheaper VPS somewhere else to keep it "off site."

Too many have forgotten what it means to administrate a single system. You can do a lot with very simple tooling.

throw-the-towel 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And now big tech often doesn't even have the high availability to show for all that complexity.

lamasery 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The better availability and scalability of “the cloud” always relied on so many things being done and maintained just right by just the right people that I don’t think it’s ever been broadly true.

You get such a large performance malus and increase in complexity right from the start with The Cloud that it’ starts at a serious deficit, and only eventually maybe overcomes that to be overall beneficial with the right workload, people, and processes. Most companies are lacking minimum two of those to justify “the cloud”.

And that’s without even considering the cost.

What I think it actually is, is a way for companies that can’t competently (I mean at an organizational/managerial level) maintain and adequately make-available computing resources, to pay someone else to do it. They’re so bad at that, that they’re willing to pay large costs in money, performance, and maybe uptime to get it.

faangguyindia 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Remember if you ever feel disappointed, the king of scale Google playstore updates stats once a day

CodesInChaos an hour ago | parent [-]

Not just stats. Configuration changes take around a day to take effect as well. Figuring out how to do authentication and permissions was such a pain. A half-assed integration with google cloud doesn't quite behave like the normal google cloud. Vague error messages. And every time you changed something you couldn't be certain your new setting was incorrect until you waited for an approximate day.

ramraj07 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apparently the phrase cargo cult software engineering is not common anymore. Explains these things perfectly.

rcbdev 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I end up explaining this term to every junior developer that doesn't know it sooner or later, the same way I explain bike shedding to all PMs that don't know it... often sooner, rather than later.

It seems to really help if you can put a term to it.

throwatdem12311 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Heh, I was gonna say cargo cult might mean something different in today’s programming landscape but then I thought about it for a second and it actually reinforces th meaning.

InfraScaler 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know what to say. People keep saying these engineers exist and here I am not having seen a single, and I follow many indie hackers communities.

dwedge 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A devops coworker found my blog and asked me how I host it, is it Kubernetes. I told him it's a dedicated server and he seemed amazed. And this was just a blog. It's real

manquer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I heard the same story many times before.

Devops engineers did not know 101 of cable management or what even a cage nut is and being amazed to see a small office running 3 used dell servers bought dirt cheap, and shocked when it sounded like a air raid when they booted up, thought hot swapping was just magic.

It is always the case - earlier in the 80s-90s programmers were shaking their heads when people stopped learning assembly and trusted the compilers fully

This is nothing and hardly is shocking? new skills are learnt only if valuable otherwise one layer below seems like magic.

InfraScaler 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Does your coworker run a blog on k8s?

dwedge 10 hours ago | parent [-]

None of them self host anything at all. It's like that skill was totally skipped. But they advise and consult on infra

Hnrobert42 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, by the time you are hiring a dedicated infra role, you should be past the single VPS stage.

dwedge 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My point is that none of these coworkers have ever been at that stage. He was surprised about me hosting something because he seems to think hosting is expensive and for companies. Straight in at the top end of k8s and microservices

wookmaster 7 hours ago | parent [-]

There's plenty of people that got a CS degree and went to work and this is only a job for them, they have no interest outside of work. Unfortunately I'm not one of those people so I get off work troubleshooting issues to troubleshoot issues at home lol though there aren't that many just my choice to self host cameras through HomeKit sometimes falls apart somehow but im also squeezing every KB or RAM out of that beelink I can.

dwedge 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Don't get me wrong I don't think a homelab is necessary, but I think people who have only done this in a big corporate environment are doing themselves a disservice - either a small company or a homelab can fix that itch, but like you say a lot of people don't have the interest

ryandrake 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It's like a developer who went straight from knowing nothing about programming to JavaScript and never looked back. They missed C, they missed assembly, they missed cycle counting, they missed knowing what your memory footprint is at all times in your application, they missed keeping your inner loops tight and in the cache... It's not just "oh this person doesn't have a nerdy hobby." These are real skill holes in [many] developers' backgrounds, just like knowing how to host something on bare metal+OS is a real skill hole for some devops people.

8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
deaux 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've worked at a startup that could've trivially ran on a single VPS and kept things simple yet had a dedicated infra guy using a full k8s setup.

Zetaphor 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I once interviewed for a small print shop that was proudly throwing out every AWS product name when describing their stack. They serve a few hundred customers and their previous system worked for decades entirely over email and a web form. I decided I wasn't interested around the point where he explained how they're migrating to lambdas

ryandrake 3 hours ago | parent [-]

LOL, I'm laughing and I wish it was because this was funny rather than terrifying.

skeeter2020 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

hey - devs aren' the only ones who fall in the premature optimization trap! Everyone from the CTO envisioning the scale of their future startup down to the IT intern is influenced by this, plus it's in the best interest of a dedicated infra guy to have a lot of dedicated infra. If you don't manage people K8s can become your kingdom and the size a badge of importance.

deaux 5 hours ago | parent [-]

In this case I think it was a bit of CTO envisioning scale, then a bit of CTO genuinely overestimating what is needed, plus a good amount of CTO just being the average nerdy dev who likes the idea of shiny toys and cool sounding stuff - "we're running on k8s!".

A year or so after I left they ran out of money. They would've lasted longer if the infra guy would've just stayed the backend guy and helped get projects done more quickly instead of shiny k8s setups for projects with a dozen end-users per day. Recently I saw that the CTO has started a new startup - and ironically the only guy who he took with him onto the new team looks to have been the infra guy!

I don't blame infra guy, he genuinely believed he was doing the right thing.

InfraScaler 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How else are you going to put k8s on your CV? :-P

Dumbledumb 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because I think precisely the indie hacker community is not as keen to default to the big-tech stacks, because those are neither indie, nor hack-y :)