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dmk 3 hours ago

The headline is dramatic but this is literally how bitcoin is designed to work. Miners leave, difficulty drops, costs go down, mining becomes profitable again. The interesting part isn’t the loss per coin, it’s how long the lag between unprofitable mining and difficulty adjustment keeps forced selling pressure on the market.

didgetmaster 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It sounds very similar to things like oil production, gold mining, and even farming. When the price is high, everyone wants in on the action. As supply explodes, the prices drop. Once prices get low enough, the costs to pump the next barrel of oil, find the next ounce of gold, or harvest the next acre of a certain crop; exceed the reward. When that happens, wells are shut down, mining operations suspended, and different crops planted. The cycle begins again.

eterm 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's a soft failure-mode for bitcoin where due to the alternating difficulty adjustment, you could end up with people only mining every other 2016-block adjustment.

Let's call this cycle A and cycle B.

If A is too hard, miners drop out, cycle B gets easier, miners flood back, cycle A gets harder.

This results in the hard cycle getting longer and the easy cycle getting shorter.

This isn't completely critical as there is I believe a small damping effect, so it isn't completely lethal to bitcoin, but a key thing about bitcoin mining is that whether other people are mining or not doesn't actually affect your own profitiability.

Other people dropping out doesn't actually mean you get more bitcoins per hour/watt, it only affects the next difficulty adjustment as a secondary effect.

londons_explore 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The damping effect is that part of your costs are the hardware, space, depreciation etc. leaving that stuff idle costs money - so it makes sense to mine in the less profitable periods too.

axus an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I think you're right, it's counterintuitive but less competition means less rewards to share for those who keep mining. Though transaction fees / hour shouldn't decrease, maybe your share of that is bigger.

chistev 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Satoshi thought of everything, man.

iwontberude 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Clearly not because they created wallets that they can’t even use without unmasking their pseudonym. Seems pretty stupid to me.

Nursie 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There is an interesting missing link in the feedback cycle with Bitcoin though - the same amount is produced regardless, supply does not contract with demand.

patapong an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But mining costs are (cost of equipment+cost of electricity)/total coins mined, so can miners not end up in a situation where they need to keep mining to pay off equipment despite the individual coins being unprofitable?

comprev an hour ago | parent [-]

It's no different to a mortgage being in negative equity as the home owner would still be in debt after selling the property.

JKCalhoun 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If "difficulty drops, costs go down" so ought the price? Isn't that basic economics? Or are they chasing the "phase difference", lag, between supply demand?

AlOwain 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I am not certain; but, costs do not have a causative relationship to prices. Prices only go down because as the cost of production goes down, supply increases. It is a correlative relationship.

Bitcoin's supply won't increase as costs go down, unlike other assets.

Joker_vD 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> costs do not have a causative relationship to prices. Prices only go down because as the cost of production goes down, supply increases.

Um. That's a causative relationship, even if it's mediated, but it's still causative. And generally, the relationship is even more direct: the suppliers are quite reluctant to sell at the price lower than their costs unless they expect the prices go up soon enough™, so the lower boundaries for the prices exist.

phil21 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's the reverse.

As price per coin goes up, more folks will find mining profitable and invest in mining operations. Difficulty goes up until it's no longer attractive for anyone to add to the global hash rate.

As price per coin goes down, less of those operations are profitable and fewer new people will find it to be a good investment. Difficulty stays the same or goes down. Due to capital expenses, difficulty is more sticky in the downward direction than upwards.

There is of course some marginal price action in between where there is in theory selling pressure from miners when it's less profitable to mine (to fund operational expenses and debt), but I don't think it's super material to the overall market volume these days.

maxerickson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The mining reward isn't a direct transaction that has a price.

Competing for it is more of a game that has a cost to participate in.

andy81 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Price isn't affected by mining difficulty, only the other direction.

arbuge an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm far from a crypto expert but aren't costs largely GPUs and electricity here?

Those are now being driven by massive AI demand and are likely to remain so for the forseeable future. So how would costs go down?

vaelin an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The cost of finding a block goes down because it becomes less difficult.

The goal in proof of work is to find a block hash less than a given value. That value is determined by the network difficulty. The lower the value, the more difficult it is to find a block, and thus the more expensive it will be to mine.

Difficulty is adjusted once every two weeks to target an average block time of 10 minutes. If the average block time during the preceding 2 weeks is less than 10 minutes, it means that blocks were too easy to find (i.e. the difficulty was too low relative to total hash rate of the network). Conversely, if the average block time was greater than 10 minutes, the difficulty was too great.

This is how it the network has maintained a roughly 10 minute block time as the hash rate of the network has grown over the past 16 years. The difficulty (i.e. cost) of finding a block is constantly being adjusted.

vardump an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think GPUs are competitive at all. You need specialized mining rigs with bitcoin mining specialized chips.

dopidopHN2 an hour ago | parent [-]

And that since a solid decade.

rokkamokka an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bitcoin is no longer mined by GPUs but by ASICs

ivewonyoung an hour ago | parent [-]

Don't the ASICs compete with the same fab capacity that fabs GPUs, RAM, SSDs etc.

svnt 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You’re fractionally right with GPUs but RAM and SSDs run on different processes at different fabs.

marcosdumay 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

They compete with older GPUs. Not new ones, not RAM, and not SSDs.

rayiner an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

If costs stay high, then people will drop out of bitcoin mining, which will cause supply to go down and bitcoin prices to go up.

Nursie 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

It won’t cause supply to go down, the same amount of Bitcoin is produced whether it’s mined by millions of ASICs or a single 2008-vintage laptop.

Aperocky 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This only works when the difficult drop rates are below miner leaving rates.

Which in normal times, are something taken for granted, but once it does happen, the edge case collapse the entire system.

edit: the earlier language is not exact, the scenario is an exponential drop of value that results in exponential drop in miner willing to mine until this discrepancy can be resolved. i.e. the system is not protected against extreme volatility (e.g. -99% over a block cycle)

samrus 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No but if more miners leave then dofficulty with drop faster right? Its modelling supply and demand curves which are a stable equilibrium in these circumstances

RichardLake 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Might be wrong about what Aperocky is alluding to but there is an entirely theoretical edge case. The time to the next difficulty adjustment is based on the current speed of mining, and the possible change in difficulty is capped. With enough minors leaving it will drop the speed of mining/network speed/ and push out the expected time to the next difficulty adjustment. I can't think of any realistic way this can occur given the miners that stay will (personally) be producing blocks as often, the increase in time being balanced out by being a larger proportionate of the mining rate. They don't care if they get 1% of the blocks, which average about 20 mins per block or 5% of the blocks that average 100mins per block.

the_mitsuhiko 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Difficulty only adjusts every 2016 blocks. If the system gets out of whack enough it could slow down to a crawl for an extended period of time.

In practice it’s not much of an issue because bitcoin is not use for commerce but it’s a store of value and it some of the trades are not even on chain.

embedding-shape 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> but once it does happen, the edge case collapse the entire system.

Which is when exactly, and how likely is that to happen? It hasn't happened yet in ~14 years, but I guess "never say never". There is a lot of money saying it won't happen very soon though.

derangedHorse 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. If the difficulty lowers at a lower rate than miners leaving then the difficulty rate will stop dropping.

knocte 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> below miner leaving rates.

What does this mean, sorry?

> the edge case collapse the entire system.

If you mean that if it reaches a certain point, the entire system will collapse, it means you don't understand the difficulty adjustment. If it's too expensive to mine, then some miners leave, which makes blocktimes be longer, but not to worry because the consequence of that it just that difficulty will go down, which means that you need less hashrate to mine (and maybe some of those miners that leave will come back because it is profitable again for them). This means that it is essentially impossible for all miners to leave at the same time; some of them stay even if at a loss, and some of them are just hobbyists that can already feed their miners with solar power (so there's really no loss for them in leaving them connected).

raverbashing 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yup

The problem with BTC going down is that it's a double whammy of not only BTC going down but also the cost of its shovels going up

Before: BTC pays $100k but a shovel costs $300

Now: BTC pays $70k but a shovel costs $$??

Bitcoin asked the right questions but came back with the wrong answers

andai 3 hours ago | parent [-]

What's a shovel?

metrix 3 hours ago | parent [-]

They're using the analogy of mining for gold. the cost of a shovel/pitchfork goes up when the price of gold goes down - which is a double whammy

shlant 3 hours ago | parent [-]

you didn't answer the question. A shovel in this case is the equipment + energy needed to mine (GPU's etc.)

raverbashing 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which is pretty much obvious to anyone who has heard of bitcoin in the year of our lord 2026

Especially since the "sell shovels during a gold rush" has been used to apply to nVidia

latexr an hour ago | parent [-]

But the person upstream hasn’t. It’s not obvious to them. Which is why a good answer has to include the detail.

Scholmo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Its still true and shows one of many issues with bitcoin.

Based on bitcoin cryptobros, you need a certain amount of independent miners for the 'quality' of bitcoins. A bitcoin miner if its a state, can operate with a loss a lot longer if not even infinit, than the decentralized normal people (who do not exist anyway).

It also creates a lot of pressure on miners if you do not run your gpus, yuou are also at a loss, which can break the mining for everyone if too many in parallel go offline, than go olnine again because difficulty droped to much.

And if it becomes to volatile, no one wants to risk it anymore

bdcravens 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> if you do not run your gpus

Bitcoin hasn't been viably mineable on GPUs for over ten years. It requires specialized hardware.

As such, mining is typically restricted to those with massive capital investment in a single-purpose, so you really won't see random offloading and onloading of that capacity. As long as it's marginally profitable (with capital investment being a sunk cost, this is the price where it's more than ongoing costs), those miners will keep their machines running.

matheusmoreira 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The original idea was for every single person out there to mine bitcoins on their own computers. Bitcoin screwed that up by allowing big corporations to push out the smaller players. Their big purpose built hardware increased mining difficulty to the point mere mortals need not even apply. Mining on GPUs? Nope, you need purpose built ASICs for this.

Monero is the only cryptocurrency today that's at least trying to implement the original "one CPU, one vote" vision but nobody really cares about it since number doesn't go up.

illiac786 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What does “leave” in this context mean?

tromp 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Turn off their mining rigs.

eru 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Or use it for other coins.

tromp 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As you can see on https://www.f2pool.com/coins other coins using SHA256 as PoW algorithm only amount to about 1% of Bitcoin's daily dollars of Pow Produced, so if any nontrivial amount of hash moves there, then those will soon become unprofitable too.

pydry 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They all correlate with bitcoin. Same problem probably applies.

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent [-]

No. all coins do not have equal mining participation.

eru 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think the comment you replied to meant that the other coins are also dropping in price, when bitcoin drops.

groundzeros2015 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes, but the coins with less participation require less power to compete. To make a market argument that there is an equilibrium of players across all coins, implies there are actual individuals finding opportunities and switching coins when they get out of sync.

jfengel 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Stop mining.

KellyCriterion 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

...and sitting on a lot of ASICs which are soon worthless....

ajross 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"stop"

(Obviously the equipment doesn't go away. You can start it again. But if you can't make a buck doing something, you won't do it.)

illiac786 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But I mean, their bitcoins are not going away, their wallets are still there, their bitcoins also right? I thought bitcoin mining was proportionally hard to the number of already mined bitcoins, not the number of people mining?

I probably should look this up in wikipedia first.

haakon 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It's a common misunderstanding that mining just gets harder and harder as time goes by and more coins are minted. It's often misreported that way. But in fact, the difficulty is dynamic and adjusts itself to keep minting at the predetermined rate regardless of the number of participants. Mining has gotten harder on long timelines, but only because more computing power has been added.

xigoi 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Doesn’t that contradict the Wikipedia article?

> Miners who successfully create a new block with a valid nonce can collect transaction fees from the included transactions and a fixed reward in bitcoins. To claim this reward, a special transaction called a coinbase is included in the block, with the miner as the payee. All bitcoins in existence have been created through this type of transaction. This reward is halved every 210,000 blocks until ₿21 million have been issued in total, which is expected to occur around the year 2140. Afterward, miners will only earn from transaction fees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin (emphasis mine)

bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Difficulty and block rewards are separate things. There is no contradiction here.

Block reward stays constant, amount of work required (on average) to get a block reward is dynamic in order to make it so that total number of rewards given out over a length of time stays roughly constant.

So if too many block rewards are claimed in a given time frame, difficulty is increased to slow things down. If not enough are claimed then difficulty decreases to make it easier to get one.

raincole 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The reward of each block will only get smaller. But the power needs to mine a block is dynamic.

xigoi 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, but that’s not what miners care about. The power needed to get a given amount of money doubles whenever the reward is halved.

raincole an hour ago | parent [-]

I honestly don't know which part of "the difficulty being dynamic" is this hard to understand.

> The power needed to get a given amount of money doubles whenever the reward is halved.

Yes, by that moment it does.

And some miners still stop mining if mining became too unprofitable.

And the difficulty will decrease because less miners are mining.

And the power needed to get a given amount of bitcoin will decrease. (Not necessarily to the level before halving, ofc)

Or your comment was about this part of the grandparent comment:

> keep minting at the predetermined rate

?

If so, I think you misunderstood what they were trying to say (or their wording was misleading). It's a predetermined rate. Not a constant rate. It's predetermined to be halved at (roughly) certain moments. Halving happens about every four years, and pouring more power into mining won't make it happen significantly sooner or later. That's what they were trying to say.

expedition32 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A perpetual boom bust cycle? Sounds healthy.

fooker an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Counterintuitively that’s the definition of healthy in economics.

If you don’t have busts, at some point your system will abruptly/violently cease to exist.

raincole an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is exactly how real world economy is (ideally) meant to work.

igsomething 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is a negative feedback loop, so yes, it makes systems stable.

AlOwain 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Regression to the mean. The alternative is no adjustment at all.