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k33n 8 hours ago

The idea that Meta is obligated to be so impartial that it must allow lawsuits against itself to be promoted on its own platform is a bit naive and utopian.

Its own TOS states that they won’t allow that.

schubidubiduba 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

TOS are not laws. In fact, they often partially violate laws and those parts are then void. In some countries, anything written in TOS that is not "expected to be there" is void.

zeroonetwothree 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ok but I don’t really see why this specific term would violate any law? Do we really want a society where platforms are forced to present speech that is harmful to them? If you own a store and I put a sign up on your wall advertising a rival store wouldn’t it be reasonable for you to disallow that?

quantum_magpie 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

An alternative reply, with analogy, if you like them:

You own a restaurant, where you sell poisoned (intentionally and knowingly) food. A group of people band up for class action lawsuit for poisoning them, and have the lawyers post a sign at your restaurant, that everyone poisoned there should reach out and get some compensation.

Should you be allowed to take the sign down?

ronsor 5 hours ago | parent [-]

They shouldn't be allowed to put the sign up unless it's court ordered.

I know this answer doesn't pass the vibes test, but it's how the law actually works. If you post a sign on someone's property without permission, you'll get in trouble for trespassing, vandalism, or both.

So get a judge to issue an order. In a serious situation, they very well might.

quantum_magpie 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s not a rival store, or speech against them.

It’s a lawsuit, with the users of the platform as the damaged party, against the platform. Removing the possibility to reach the users should result in a default judgement with maximum damages immediately.

raincole 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No one says ToS are laws and especially not the parent commenter.

Fraterkes 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The parent comment brings up the ToS as an example of why it's naive to believe Meta is obligated to do something, but what Meta is obligated to do depends on the law.

raincole 6 hours ago | parent [-]

And which laws state that Meta is obligated to show ads like this?

Fraterkes 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Irrelevant. My point is that the parent comment did imply that the ToS created obligations for Meta in the way that laws do, which means your first comment was incorrect.

mywittyname 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I kind of wish countries would just define, "terms of service" for everyone and not allow companies to modify them further.

nkrisc 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fair enough. If they're not impartial then lets hold them accountable for the content published in their platform.

k33n 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m not against these companies losing their Section 230 immunity. Social media platforms are, in my personal opinion, publishers in their current form.

If they went back to operating as “friends and family feed providers” then letting them keep their 230 immunity would be easier to justify.

TheCoelacanth 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, if they went back to being chronological feeds of people you follow, then they should get to keep Section 230 immunity.

When they are making editorial decisions about what to content to promote to you and what content to hide from you, then they should lose it.

pocksuppet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Section 230 doesn't say anything about publishers. That was entirely made up by chronically online arguers.

What it does say is you aren't liable for something someone else wrote.

It doesn't create liability for things not covered by it.

Guess who decides the order and contents of Facebook feeds? Facebook does. So they wouldn't be liable for someone writing a post saying "gas the jews" but they would still be liable for choosing to show it at the top of everyone's front page, if that was a choice, because the front page was choice-based rather than chronological.

wbobeirne 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You are relying on the wrong people to be able to understand that nuanced distinction.

wnevets 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

mc32 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To me that’s how it should be. They shouldn’t have to run ads against themselves yet they should be liable or accountable for harm they are found guilty of.

pixl97 7 hours ago | parent [-]

>They shouldn’t have to run ads against themselves

This is not how it works when you're found guilty of committing harm. Tobacco companies are a good example of this.

mc32 7 hours ago | parent [-]

If the government mandates them then yes. If it’s not mandated they have the right to refuse service.

pixl97 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The bigger you get the more iffy it gets refusing service to others. Also it can and will be used against you in future civil and criminal cases.

iinnPP 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I tend to agree with you on this. I wanted to add however that Meta itself lets so many TOS violating ads in, that it seems like special treatment for ads that are much less undesirable than the ads normally pushed.

It's not just a Meta issue either.

hansvm 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Companies have to inform affected individuals of data breaches, especially when HIPAA gets involved. Brokers have to inform clients of transaction errors. Auto manufacturers have to inform owners of recalls. Retirement funds have to inform plan participants of lawsuits involving those funds.

You don't even have to invoke the idea that Meta is big enough to be regulated as a public utility for this to have broad precedent in favor of forcing a malicious actor to inform its victims that they might be entitled to a small fraction of their losses in compensation.

zeroonetwothree 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Well we aren’t discussing the government requiring meta to inform users. We are discussing whether meta can choose which private actors’ ads to allow. It would seem silly that a platform would be forced to allow all ads.

hansvm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Aha, how clever. We aren't discussing whether they can be forced to display messaging; we're discussing whether they're going to later get slapped down for blocking that messaging.

I get that the distinction matters a bit from time to time (court cases keep blurring the line in the US though), but:

1. With all the other shit that makes it through the filter, this was pretty clearly a targeted, strategic takedown rather than some sort of broad "we don't allow bad ads on the platform." Allowing "all ads" isn't the thing being argued; it's allowing "this ad."

2. The non-offensive idea of "abusers shouldn't be allowed to deceive and gaslight their victims" is pretty strongly in favor of this being a bad move on Meta's part if it was an intentional act. Maybe it shakes out fine for them legally in this particular instance, but the fact that as a society we routinely require companies and individuals to behave with more appearance of moral standing than this suggests that blocking this particular ad is over the line, and it's neither naive nor utopianistic to think so. Even if it's legally in the light-grey, it's an abuse of power worth talking about, and hopefully it inspires more people to leave their platform.

mirashii 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That idea was not expressed in the article, only the fact that the ads were removed. This is worth covering, especially when coupled with the context for what ads Meta regularly does allow. One does not have to believe that they're obligated to do so while also believing that it's incredibly scummy behavior that consumers should be aware of and question.

https://www.reuters.com/investigations/meta-is-earning-fortu...

dcrazy 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is why courts are empowered to infringe upon the rights of parties to the case.

Zigurd 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are so many ads for nostrums, cults, get rich quick scams, and other junk that violate TOS, that Meta has a legitimacy problem with their TOS.

freejazz 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Okay? They're exactly the assholes everyone says they are. That's the point.

gilrain 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let’s force them to be obligated to do that, then. “Just let them hurt people, and then let them hide that hurt” kind of sucks for society.

3form 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe, but so what? Your remark lacks a conclusion.

Mine is that it could then well be required to do so by law. Companies are not individuals, so I don't think they are owed any freedoms beyond what is best for utility they can provide.

Larrikin 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

pixl97 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

streetfighter64 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The idea that a company can override laws via its TOS is a bit strange.

BeetleB 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Genuinely curious. By not allowing a specific type of ad, what law are they breaking?

hashmap 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

at certain scales, reality has to win out over whatever ideal you have in your head about how things should be. facebook is massive, a lot of society is on it, and its a problem to make recourse invisible to people most affected by the thing stealing their attention.

swiftcoder 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The idea that Meta is obligated to be so impartial

Is their defence of Section 230 protections not in part rooted in that claim of impartiality?

nradov 7 hours ago | parent [-]

No. Section 230 doesn't mention anything about impartiality.

swiftcoder 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It indeed doesn't, but conservative lawmakers signalled repeatedly that they were unhappy about Meta's protection under section 230 if their moderation policies were not politically neutral