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kennywinker 8 hours ago

> The tests are popular because they’re cheap, portable and can screen for drugs in mere minutes. It’s just not feasible to send all suspected drug samples to state laboratories, which would be far more expensive and could take days or weeks to return results.

Sounds like the govs problem, not the people accused of a crime. Limitations in testing do not justify using inaccurate tools. If it takes weeks, it takes weeks. Gov doesn’t get to ruin innocent lives just because it’s more convenient. At least, they shouldn’t… apparently they do

t-3 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Part of the problem is that public defence is extremely stressful and not particularly well paid, as well as being less prestigious than prosecution.

Few are going to give their all to defend someone who has already "failed" a drug test. Better to sort out a quick plea deal and focus on cases that will impress private sector clients later.

If you can get out of jail time with some deal that requires a fine and putting up with some annoyances, is it really worth fighting things out to prove your innocence and risk failing?

kennywinker 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Right, on an individual level that makes sense - but whoever saw the error rate for this test (or lied about it to sell it) and approved it for use by police deserves jail time themselves.

You’d think we’d have a mechanism to make that happen.

_DeadFred_ 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Get together a law firm to do a class action on behalf of all the people wrongfully convicted. Make it too expensive for companies to provide these sorts of services to the government. But the companies will be covered as 'agents of the state' and given qualified immunity.

kennywinker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

So, an unaccountable system.

alwa 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And, to put a charitable gloss on it—many of your clients who protest their innocence did actually have something true-positive on them. TFA cites manufacturers claiming a 4% false positive rate in lab conditions, and protesters claiming a 15-18% FPR in field conditions [*]. Offensive and intolerable in the aggregate, yes; but as far as base odds for any specific case in front of me?

Assuming 18% of my defendants truly didn’t have drugs or drug residue on them, that still means 4 out of 5 of them did—and that the extra months of sitting in jail and fighting would lead nowhere for them. What’s 6 months of diversion by comparison?

Even beyond the odds, how many of defendants’ claims are precise enough to implicate test accuracy specifically? “No, man, I swear I don’t do that stuff anymore” might be completely true and still result in a marginal-but-confirmatory lab result for the swab of the ol’ contraband satchel or whatever.

Seems to me that’s the sort of stuff that the plea-negotiation part is for: instead of hoping expensive and slow science will give you certainty (or context), it’s “hey prosecutor, even if the test is right, we’re talking residue not bricks… diversion and call it a day?”

I feel like, from the outside (and fed a steady diet of Law and Order television show), people grossly overestimate the degree of certainty embedded in a criminal conviction. I’m reminded of the classic Kalven and Zeisel study (1967) [1] finding, among other things, that judges and juries who sat through the exact same trial disagreed on guilt or innocence in up to 25% of cases.

False convictions are outrageous, and I understand our individual instincts here to say “go to the mat for the truth!” But people are complicated, context is hazy, and there’s some irreducible residual rate at which any approach to justice gets it wrong. Which adds up to a lot more individuals than we’d like to assume.

One of many reasons not to confuse the person with the bureaucratic record of the person.

[*] Or, as the CNN person writes, a “91% error rate” per an NYCDOI study… guessing because there they were over-applying the tests in situations with extremely low base rates? At first I assumed this was a typical case of journalistic innumeracy, but reading through the study [0], they’re absolutely right and worth a quick aside: 91% really was the actual false positive rate the lab found in actual field tests. Surface swabs in a jail mail interdiction program, only examining the fentanyl tests, but still. It’s a wild read in all sorts of ways: there was a known reaction between the field test and chemicals in paper, but they used it for the mail anyway; the more false positives they saw, the more they panicked that all the mail had fentanyl in it. 89% of all the initial DOC field tests came back positive, 91% of those positives turned out to be false ones. The administration interpreted this to mean that all the inmates’ families were clearly “soaking envelopes in liquid fentanyl,” then mailing them to inmates to “chew.” The misconception led them all the way to trying to ban physical mail in the system.

[0] https://www.nyc.gov/assets/doi/reports/pdf/2024/FieldTesting...

[1] https://www.commentary.org/articles/abraham-goldstein/the-am... and replicated recently https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/facpub/343/

kennywinker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I might accept a 0.1% false positive rate - but 4% is unconscionable. Yes, trials are messy, but this isn’t a trial - it’s a bad test.

Tbh, your “people are complicated” stance feels like the position of someone who believes they will never be on the wrong side of situations like these. I hope you never are, but I don’t think it’s a position that is defensible if you’re including people who are in groups likely to be subjected to tests like this (e.g. prison inmates)

duskdozer 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You know, why not just make it a lot faster and more convenient and just go by the expert assessment of the officer on scene? No need for all the bloat.

fragmede 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would dread the arrival of this officer/judge arriving on the scene.

drfloyd51 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I. AM. THE LAW.

Dreddful.

Jimmc414 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is this satire?

Zigurd 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because this is HN, and especially because it's HN's audience reading it, this is a perfectly cromulent question.

ahhhhnoooo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One hopes it's satire. Can't tell, unfortunately.

6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
throwaway9980 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ruining innocent people’s lives is what government is best at doing. Don’t think of as convenient. Think of it as realization of purpose.

Zigurd 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

More specificity would help. Cops, cop culture, incompetent and purposely harmful training, and the appalling nature of our criminal "justice" system is what ruins lives. Some other parts of government might be just as bad, but in other ways for other reasons.

kennywinker 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Criminal legal system is what i’ve been using.

swores 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sorry but that's bullshit.

It's extremely rare for any part of government to have that as an intended purpose.

But it's extremely common, unfortunately, for people involved to be willing to accept that as a side effect in pursuing whatever their goals are - whether that's gaining funding for their police department, or raising political donations from the owners of a private prison, or keeping poor people away from their beautiful upper middle class neighbourhood, or environment-ruining chemical company, or... whatever.

20after4 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A system’s purpose is what it does, not what it claims to do.

therealdrag0 5 hours ago | parent [-]

That doesn’t make sense. Such a “I’m 14 and this is deep” thought terminating cliche.

array_key_first 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It does make sense, because if you were developing a bad or evil system then you would obviously want to obfuscate that as much as possible. The first thing you'd do, clearly, is proclaim that the purpose of the system is something good.

This is a common fallacy or I guess maybe shoddy reasoning I see often. Because someone or something either does not announce their intentions or says their intentions are good, then the thing they are using must also be good. Or, we must assume it is good until they announce they're going to use it for not-good purposes.

Like with Flock. There's a lot of people who think the simple defense that Flock thinks it is used to fight crime means it's good. Or DOGE. The simple defense that the people behind DOGE say it's to prevent fraud means it's good.

But what people say and what actually happens are two different things, and the what actually happens part is 1000x more important. Anyone can say anything, and obviously bad actors will lie. That's just a given. So you can't use the stated purpose of something as a defense for that something. You just can't, it makes no sense.

therealdrag0 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I never said the stated purpose is a defense. The purpose is the purpose not the outcome. Just because you can’t know the true intent of every actor involved does not mean you’re justified in assuming the purpose is what it does. That is lazy broken epistemology.

I agree what a system does is what is important, so why dilute that fact with assumptions of intent and glib moralizing thought terminating cliches?

cindyllm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

salawat 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Will say every benefactor of people not thinking that way. The rest of us, on the other hand, look at the objective results and realize if you want them to change, you have to change the system.

therealdrag0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Well duh. “A system will do what it does” is true, but that should not be conflated with its intent or purpose or design which require understanding of human intent. And humans produce unintended results all the time.

ahhhhnoooo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The purpose of a system is what it does. If that wasn't the purpose, the system would be changed.

therealdrag0 5 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s as dumbs as the saying “there can’t be a 100$ bill on the ground because if there was it’d have been picked up.”

ahhhhnoooo 5 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not at all like that?

Claiming that a system's purpose is something it consistently fails to do is absurd. Intentions don't matter, outcomes matter.

This is a pretty basic systems theorist argument, to be honest...

therealdrag0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

A systems purpose depends on its creator. Creators regularly fail to produce intended results. It’s absurd to say an unintended result is the intended result

ahhhhnoooo 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> It’s absurd to say an unintended result is the intended result

I didn't say that. I said the unintended results are the purpose of a system, not the intent.

kennywinker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How long is it ok to produce “unintended” results without changing anything, before you can say that’s now an expected part of the system? Because i think that’s the issue. It’s not that the US has a goal to criminalize poverty - the constitution doesn’t say anything about that - but since it’s been that way for so long it seems the system is unwilling to do what needs to be done to prevent that. It’s part of the expected behavior of the system.

anonymousiam 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not as rare as you might think.

Organizations such as OSF/OSI (Open Society Foundations, not Open Software Foundation) have successfully placed their preferred candidates in positions of power in many major US jurisdictions. If you research, you'll see many cases of OSF DAs prosecuting or not prosecuting based on their political ideology. Many prosecutions are politically motivated, but now we have foundations funding activist candidates who are all pushing the same agenda. The result is diminished trust in government, which the activists will exploit to eventually make things even worse, because "capitalism is not working."

kennywinker 6 hours ago | parent [-]

You make it sound like they are doing corruption. I.e. don’t prosecute your friends, do prosecute your enemies. But this is more like using the power at your jurisdiction level to oppose unjust laws.

I.e. where i live the city council long ago directed police to stop arresting people for marijuana possession - on the grounds that this is an unjust law and criminalizing it is tying up resources and doing more harm than good, and because the majority of the city’s population supports legalization. City gov doesn’t have the power to change those laws, but they can fix it locally by directing enforcement away from them. A decade later, it was legalized - imo proving that it was the right decision.

This did not “diminish trust” in the gov. In fact, laws that the majority disagree with but stay on the books do far far more damage to the credibility of gov, in my opinion