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bilsbie 2 days ago

“ Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

- Universal Declaration of Human Rights

https://www.ohchr.org/en/human-rights/universal-declaration/...

chromacity 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's a meaningless, feel-good rule. Every country has countless carve-outs. To give you a trivial example: in the US, you can't get a passport if you owe more than $2,500 in child support.

suburban_strike 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As of 2015 (FAST Act), your passport will be revoked if you owe more than $66,000 in unpaid taxes.

Longhanks 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Whilst I agree, to be fair, a passport is usually only needed when entering a country, not leaving one, right? Under the cited rule, the US needs to allow you to leave, not help you in entering some other country.

geokon 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You generally do present your passport when leaving. Most places you get an exit stamp (which matches your entry stamp). They usually confirm things such as not overstaying a visa.

ex:

overstaying in Thailand results in a on-the-spot fine

China lately has exit checks when traveling to SEA (they try to intercept people traveling to scam centers)

einpoklum 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have yet to leave a country (well, a state technically) without having to show a passport - with the exception of the Schengen area.

wat10000 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's mostly because transport companies have to pay to ship you back if you get turned away at the border, so they will want to see your permission to enter your destination country before you leave. I've traveled internationally a fair bit and I've never had to show my passport to government officials when leaving the US.

MarsIronPI a day ago | parent [-]

Don't the TSA count as government agents? I don't have a problem with these checks, but I do believe the TSA does them, no?

wat10000 a day ago | parent [-]

TSA needs some form of ID but they’ll accept non-passport ID even if you’re traveling internationally.

voxic11 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

TSA doesn't even need an ID, if you don't have one they just take your information and check it against some databases to "confirm" your identity.

wat10000 an hour ago | parent [-]

Would they do that for an international departure? They know where you’re flying, and I’d think they’d just tell you to stop being an idiot and show them the passport you obviously must have. But policies can be weird, so maybe not.

MarsIronPI a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah, that's right. But don't airlines check passports then? I vaguely remember needing to provide a passport at boarding time.

wat10000 a day ago | parent [-]

Yes, that's what I said above. The US government doesn't give a toss, but the airline has to fly you back if you're refused entry at your destination, so they will do their best to ensure you have the documents you need.

BoneShard a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can drive to Canada with my driver license.

Longhanks 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean, really not trying to frame this in any way, but asylum seekers do it all the time.

einpoklum 2 days ago | parent [-]

Ok, fair enough, but if I were German - I don't really think I would asylum anywhere on the basis of Germany maybe intending to conscript me in the future.

grumbelbart 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm reasonably sure Russia would take you.

einpoklum 17 hours ago | parent [-]

I rather doubt it, but - can you back that up by some examples at least?

sixhobbits 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It is quite difficult to leave a country without simultaneously entering another

aregue 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It is trivial for any country that is not land-locked. You just have to sail to international waters. What is difficult is to stay there.

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
layer8 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person." Military service also serves the purpose to defend that right when the country is attacked. Rights aren't absolute, they have to be traded off against each other.

frodowtf2 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Military service in the west is not for defence. Irak, Iran, Syria, Vietnam...

layer8 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The German constitution explicitly prohibits starting wars: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...

wartywhoa23 2 days ago | parent [-]

It's about time to finally grok that all world's military is only there to wage wars at the whim of the 0.001% under the guise of being defence-only, and that constitutions worth less than toilet paper these days.

RandomLensman 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

What's an example of the German constitution being "worth less than toilet paper these days"?

wartywhoa23 2 days ago | parent [-]

There's none yet until there suddenly is.

layer8 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

So what's your proposed solution? Not have a military and just roll over when someone decides to attack you?

wartywhoa23 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

My proposed solution is understanding what this scene means:

In front of a blood-stained chessboard littered with mutilated chess pieces finely dine two royal couples - black and white - cheering their endgame.

layer8 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

How does that solve any problem?

salawat a day ago | parent [-]

Kill the royal couples, no problem. There is an argument to be made that those that start wars should be sentenced to death for doing so. Particularly frivolous ones of aggression.

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
cindyllm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

AngryData a day ago | parent | prev [-]

If the civilian populous has access to arms and armories they can make it a worthless proposition to invade them. Its not like the world is entirely composed of large countries with strong militaries already. An insurgency can last decades under fire from a superior force, an organized military won't. So if you can't match the organized military might of potential enemies, its probably mostly a waste to try.

signatoremo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Defense doesn't mean not to start a war. Think about how Vietnam justified their invasion of Cambodia in 1978, or how China started the war with Vietnam the following year, or how Turkey entered Syria, how Pakistan fought the Taliban recently, and of course what Russia did in Ukraine, 2014 and 2022.

Wars are messy and have always been. Military actions are to be decided by the governments. Those who have resources are more willingly to use it, west or east.

watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Germany was one of the least militarized countries after WWII. They were kind of scared of themselves.

aleph_minus_one 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Rather: the "victorious" countries of the Second World war were afraid of a re-militarization of Germany. On the other hand, they wanted to re-militarize the Western part of Germany just a little bit so that West Germany could become part of the NATO.

samus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Quite the contrary; up until the end of the Cold War both German states were highly militarized. They were quite happy to be able to roll back a lot of it after the reunification though.

RandomLensman 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Germany participated how there?

einpoklum 2 days ago | parent [-]

Germany participated in the NATO military campaign/occupation of Afghanistan, including ground forces, naval activities and special operations units. Its seems a total of 150,000 German soldiers (and police officers?) were deployed overall (not at the same time of course); of them, 62 were killed and 249 wounded:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Armed_Forces_casualties...

Germany was also directly involved in the NATO campaign against (former) Yugoslavia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

and finally, Germany hosts large contigents of US forces, including air forces likely involved in the current illegal war against Iran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_Air_Base

samus 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

To put the number of 150000 total deployes soldiers into perspective, the Bundeswehr contingent in the end had a ceiling of 5350 troops.

dudefeliciano 2 days ago | parent [-]

5350 troops supposed to defend Germany, were instead waging a useless war in Afghanistan. 5350 troops too many.

RandomLensman 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Iran, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam? Hosting US forces in Germany is participating?

dudefeliciano 2 days ago | parent [-]

yes it is, how is that not obvious?

dogemaster2026 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It is for the defense of the American national interests and friend nations:

- Iraq: 1) to expel Iraq from Kuwait, and 2) weapons (though this turned out to be mistaken) after the 9/11 attacks

- Iran: we don’t need another nuclear nation

- Syria: destroy terrorists (ISIS), enforce the red line on chemical weapons, and to protect US troops (when we attacked Iran-supported militias)

- Vietnam: to stop the spread of communism and protect neighboring nations

pfannkuchen 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That is basically redefining the word defense, though.

I can’t be like “it was self defense” if I beat somebody up because they are getting too big at the gym and they could beat me up later if I don’t beat them up first.

That doesn’t mean such a thing is never ever justified, in international relations, it just ain’t “defense”.

aleph_minus_one 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> That is basically redefining the word defense, though.

I guess that dogemaster2026 wanted to express this in a little bit more indirect way. :-)

dogemaster2026 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If they keep saying “DEATH TO PFANNKUCHEN” it is not smart for you not to beat them up first.

Why would you let them get strong? Just so they kill you and your family? You don’t seem to care about yourself nor about your family enough.

pfannkuchen a day ago | parent [-]

Well that depends. Are they saying this because they have a problem with me specifically? Or is it because they have a problem with my asshole friend who I for some reason support financially?

If it’s the latter (like it is in reality, AFAICT), I would first do some serious reflection about my friend.

dogemaster2026 a day ago | parent [-]

They are not saying DEATH TO YOUR FRIEND. They are saying DEATH TO PFANNKUCHEN.

How much more specific do you want them to be?

Again, why would you let them get strong? Just so they kill you and your family? You don’t seem to care about yourself nor about your family enough.

pfannkuchen a day ago | parent [-]

In the analogy, if you are financially supporting guy A who is harassing guy B and his family constantly over years, and as a kicker guy A acts like he’s done nothing wrong, it is human nature for guy B to be pissed not only at guy A but also at YOU who financially supports guy A even while you know what he is doing.

If you stop financially supporting guy A and sincerely apologize to guy B, and guy B continues to be pissed at you, THEN you can act like he is unreasonable and take steps to protect yourself, even if those steps hurt guy B.

You can’t pretend guy A is blameless and act confused why guy B is pissed at you, which is what is happening in real life.

dogemaster2026 a day ago | parent [-]

Of course I am going to support Guy A because HE IS MY FRIEND or FAMILY.

But the fact remains your strategy will only lead to your death and your family’s. Which it would be good for your family to know.

47282847 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Of course you are free to support abusive behavior but especially with friends and family it would probably be useful for your own sake not to do so, and it is factually correct to view (and treat) you as enabler if you continue to do so despite knowing about the abuse.

vasac 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So while many of the reasons are questionable (understatement of the year), let’s focus on the last one. After America lost the war in Vietnam, what happened to those neighboring nations? Did they suffer from Vietnamese communists? The only Vietnamese intervention was in Cambodia, and hardly anyone thinks that wasn’t the right thing to do.

dogemaster2026 2 days ago | parent [-]

The OP said it was not for “defence.” I am arguing the reasons were for the defense of American interests. That is objectively true.

vasac 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The OP probably thought of defense in the narrow sense as "the action of defending against or resisting an attack", and not in the broader sense defined as "we’re going to travel halfway around the world to kill a million people because that’s who we are". A common mistake.

dogemaster2026 a day ago | parent [-]

Not because “that’s who we are.” That’s a ret*rded retort. You go halfway around the world because you want to protect your friends and your nation’s interest.

Wouldn’t you do that to protect your family and your home, now and into generations? I think I know the answer.

t-3 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That depends greatly on which interests you allow to be defined as "American". The vast majority of American people would have preferred not to be involved in most of our foreign adventures. The rich and powerful thought differently. Is our citizenship determined by the size of our bank accounts?

dogemaster2026 2 days ago | parent [-]

This is factually incorrect. Here are the estimates for the rates of support for each conflict at the beginning of the conflict:

- Iraq (Gulf War): 75-80%

- Iraq (2003): 65-76%

- Syria: 35-50%

- Vietnam: 65-75%

- Iran: 42%

Alexander Hamilton wrote that governance should involve people with “wisdom to discern” and “virtue to pursue the common good”. The US is not a direct democracy; it is a constitutional republic. The definition of what constitutes American interests is literally whatever the United States federal government says it is.

SOURCES:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

- https://news.gallup.com/poll/8212/only-americans-believe-war...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_domestic_reactions_to_the_2...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_in...

- https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2026/04/01/iran-war-...

swat535 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Invading other countries to take their resources and kill civilians is not defence.

With your logic, Russia is also acting in a defensive manner.

MarsIronPI a day ago | parent | next [-]

I'm probably going to get flagged for this, but here goes anyway.

Russia absolutely has reason to not want Ukraine to join NATO. I'm not condoning the invasion, but I say it absolutely makes sense for Russia to carry it out. Not a reason to commit war crimes, or to cause any more suffering than necessary, but from a national security perspective it makes sense to want to disrupt the process of Ukraine joining NATO.

mopsi a day ago | parent [-]

Only if you accept the hidden assumption that Russia is an antagonist toward the rest of Europe. Otherwise the common "national security" justifications make no sense, because Russia benefits immensely from other NATO members investing resources into the development of institutions in newer member states.

A former Russian foreign minister has labeled NATO "free-of-charge security" for Russia, because NATO membership requirements turn a country into a stable and predictable place. The best neighbors Russia has are in NATO, and much of that stability is directly attributable to their membership.

AlexeyBelov 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

They meant "defense of interests", not "defense of the country" (as in a geographical entity).

SZJX 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, by such definitions any country is justified to wage a war and always find a way to claim it’s for self-defense (which is indeed how most causus belli have worked throughout the history – they always claim to have the moral high ground when launching the war). This is also how essentially in every country it’s called the Department of Defense (unless you’re Trump) but that means nothing as they start wars all the same. Not a trace of any rules, accountability or restraints still remains under such a framing.

dogemaster2026 2 days ago | parent [-]

Correct. The strongest always wins.

Also it’s not defense. It’s national security what matters.

Prior to WW2, almost every nation called it “ministry of war.” The defense branding is a modern woke framing to appease the masses.

calf 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Rights are morally absolute, and the cynical insistence that they must be traded off is both fallacious and intellectually hypocritical. You want certain weaker rights, then just admit it, don't be disingenuous about it.

roshin 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ukraine has been violating that for young men since the start of its war.

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

In an attempt to preserve the rights of Ukrainian citizens in the long run. Surrendering to Russia would have more impact than the draft does.

The UN acknowledges this conflict to some extent; https://www.ohchr.org/en/conscientious-objection

looshch 2 days ago | parent [-]

[dead]

rustyhancock 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Shockingly sexist policy.

And as per usual because its harmful to men no one cares.

beeforpork 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The constitution made it impossible to make a less sexist law, because it says that women cannot be forced to military service. It is an old document, and it is based on old role models. Modernizing the constitution would require 2/3 majority, and the government was already struggling with making a law at all.

This is an explanation, not a justification.

looshch 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> The constitution made it impossible to make a less sexist law

with the right level of public exposure citizens would surely have been able to put enough pressure on the government to make this happen. But instead zelensky kept repeating the talking points that we should not be concerned about the war because the risk had not changed since 2014. Near-zero effort was made to evacuate ukrainians living near the russian border or those who would be in the way of russian troops. The intelligence had been there for at least six months before the war began

> and the government was already struggling with making a law at all

what do you mean?

throwiuhh 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

jmm5 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In a scenario where you are losing a significant part of the population to war, it's better that it be men.

everforward 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Only if you ignore free will. Feels unlikely that women will suddenly abandon monogamy and forced procreation à la the draft is probably very unpopular especially given that women would be a majority. Not that they’re wrong to disagree, but there are more conditions here than the biology of procreation.

The modern answer would be immigration, and that’s gender-agnostic.

dudefeliciano 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

in a scenario where your country is on the verge of war, where will those women procreate? I imagine that those who can will leave the country ASAP

looshch 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

why?

ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-]

Because a thousand women don't need a thousand men to make the next generation.

looshch a day ago | parent [-]

that argument is uninformed, check the birth rate in ukraine

also check who are these refugees abroad: mostly women and children. How many will return? No one knows. Also what’s the incentive for women to return knowing there are far less options to marry?

who will be working hard jobs where men are prevalent?

what about the current generation? Who will be rebuilding the country from ruins? I’ve never seen women working in construction in ukraine

also this is cynical, your position assumes it’s either men or women, not sharing the military service duty

go learn the history and then come here to comment on the matter

ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-]

> that argument is uninformed, check the birth rate in ukraine

This has long been the argument for a male-only draft.

One woman can make 1-2 babies every 9 months on average. It is difficult and expensive to speed that up; you can implant quadruplets and induce labor at six months, but that introduces all sorts of other problems. Sperm is much easier to obtain.

> who will be working hard jobs where men are prevalent?

Women, if too many men die in the war.

> I’ve never seen women working in construction in ukraine

This was also the case for the US in the 1940s. Women entered the workforce in large numbers for the first time. Plenty of predecent for this sort of shift.

> go learn the history and then come here to comment on the matter

As you can see from the above, this is perhaps advice you should follow first before yelling at others.

looshch a day ago | parent [-]

> This has long been the argument for a male-only draft. One woman can make 1-2 babies every 9 months on average. It is difficult and expensive to speed that up; you can implant quadruplets and induce labor at six months, but that introduces all sorts of other problems. Sperm is much easier to obtain.

this argument is detached from ukrainian realities. Can ≠ will. Also have you checked the birth rate? Do you expect it to grow in a post-war context?

> Women, if too many men die in the war

so who will then raise these 1-2 babies every 9 months on average? If women need to replace men in the workforce, first they need to go through education and training. Along with having children, it’s incredibly hard to accomplish

> Women entered the workforce in large numbers for the first time. Plenty of precedent for this sort of shift

in the same sentence you say ‘for the first time’ and then ‘Plenty of precedent’. You either have no idea what ‘plenty’ means or you contradict yourself

the states weren’t ruined like europe was. The large numbers you are talking about are only large compared to normal historical numbers and female population percentage

also you completely ignore the cultural context, ukraine is not the states. The story of your country, which seems the only one you know, isn‘t as relevant as, for example, the history of ussr. We didn’t have a boomer generation. There are way too many differences for me to continue, so surely you are uneducated on the ussr history

> yelling at others.

yelling? Not a single exclamation point but still yelling? You have a rich imagination for sure

edit: formatting

ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-]

> Also have you checked the birth rate? Do you expect it to grow in a post-war context?

Yes, birth rates tend to go up when wars end.

> in the same sentence you say ‘for the first time’ and then ‘Plenty of precedent’. You either have no idea what ‘plenty’ means or you contradict yourself

This is baffling.

Women entering the workforce in the 1940s due to the war is the precedent. It happened throughout the developed world. We are now eighty years past that demonstration.

> The story of your country, which seems the only one you know, isn‘t as relevant as, for example, the history of ussr. We didn’t have a boomer generation.

There was indeed a birth rate spike in the 1940s in Russia.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1038013/crude-birth-rate...

Unfortunately… Stalin.

Side note: I have dual citizenship, so I’m not sure which one of them is “the only one” I know.

cindyllm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

lpcvoid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And russia has been violating this too, along with other much worse things, as usual.

cedws 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Hard to feel the same sympathy for Russian men to be honest, I've seen many gallivanting abroad, whilst majority of Ukrainian men are stuck either in hiding in their own country or have been sent to the front lines. Only a few got out early or by paying bribes.

saidnooneever 2 days ago | parent [-]

honestly i am happy for the russian and ukranian young men and women i meet here in NL each day. Glad for them they can dodge the draft. most simply drove out, some had more hastle than others.

war is shit on all sides and thinking one or the other suffers less because you dont like their colours is very short sighted.... i think we had enough time by now to realise it.

and dont call it cowardice if someone doesnt want to fight for a bunch of 'rich pricks' playin with their money while normal people get to die in the streets. It has never been good or normal and should never be.

cedws 2 days ago | parent [-]

It's objectively worse on the Ukrainian side. Imagine you haven't been able to leave your house in 4 years for fear you'll be grabbed by a draft officer. Russians do not know this fear.

To boot, many Russian men have been paid handsomely for their participation in the SMO and get to live nice lives abroad.

sesqu 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Did you just forget about the mobilization drive Russia had in 2022, where they grabbed young men off streets and from their houses?

It was very unpopular, lead to people fleeing the country, and was pushed out of the public eye as soon as they figured out how to forcefully volunteer people instead.

Mikhail_Edoshin 2 days ago | parent [-]

Nobody grabbed anyone. It was an unusual, but otherwise a normal bureaucratic process. Got handed a paper, signed, have to appear. Many probably didn't have plans to go voluntarily, but felt it unmanly to dodge. I was at one of such sites and saw a man who got there too drunk and was handed over to the police; he was very disappointed he is not allowed go with the fellas.

It wasn't hard to dodge; you could just refuse to take the papers pretending it's not you or get sick the very day or something like that. The system had a number and once it was reached (very quickly) no further action was necessary. The only change so far us that the employers started to follow their military tracking procedure to the letter; before that it was required but not really enforced, but now all the paperwork gets done by the book.

Some people indeed left the country but those are the kind you don't want to have your back anyway.

Forceful volunteering is pure imagination. At most it's intensive persuasion or a new way to get out of jail, but if you don't want to go, nobody will force you.

JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Nobody grabbed anyone

Around the Moscow elite, no. In the outer provinces, we have ample evidence of forced conscription.

saghm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not like it's zero-sum though; the world outside Russia and as Ukraine isn't going to become so full that there's no room for more or them to leave to dodge fighting in a war, so the parent commenter can easily be happy for any of them regardless of their country of origin.

throw-the-towel 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Factually untrue, Russian men can and do leave the country. Also, nice whataboutism bro.

yolo3000 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

How about Russians from abroad, do they often go back to Russia?

throw-the-towel 2 days ago | parent [-]

The men I know try not to go unless it's absolutely necessary. The women generally prance to Russia and back all the time. (Exceptions exist, of course.)

lpcvoid 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You started with bringing Ukraine up under an article about Germany, so how is your comment any less a whataboutism than mine?

throw-the-towel 2 days ago | parent [-]

That was a different user and not me, but fair point.

kingleopold 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

wolvesechoes 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Nobody even questions why men in UKR. cannot leave the country

Because the answer is obvious - Ukraine fights war.

kingleopold 2 days ago | parent [-]

Why is it only *forced for men? Does that sound equal and civil to you? note we are not living in middle ages and there is no world war.

samus 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The constitution says so and at the moment it's unlikely for a qualified majority to be found to change it. It's as simple as that.

wolvesechoes 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Why is it only *forced for men?

Because since mass armies are the case it always was so, and all can men do now is whine on the internet, because they are not going to do anything.

> Does that sound equal and civil to you?

Not really, but however it sounds has no impact of it being the case.

> note we are not living in middle ages

In middle ages most men had no obligation to fight wars.

randomNumber7 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You can now simply change the gender in your passport as a german, so practically it would be very easy to get around this.

But it is very easy to see from this all that some people are very vocal about equality when in reality they want privileges.

IncreasePosts 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just because some people write some words doesn't mean they have any relevance to any society.

Izikiel43 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, those are just pretty words without the power to enforce them, like everything else the UN does

randomNumber7 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Every law is just words unless there is a power that can enforce it.

JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-]

But the UN DHR doesn’t seem to have been written as law. It was written as a declaration, in line with our own Declaration of Independence. It lists our ideals that need to be spelled into law. That lets it be airy and vague in a way laws cannot.

randomNumber7 2 days ago | parent [-]

How does this relate to my comment?

JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-]

It isn’t “every law.” It’s not written to be directly operationalised. You’re comparing a declaration of values to operational law; they’re words in different ways and contexts.

randomNumber7 2 days ago | parent [-]

Is a "declaration of values" more than words if there is no power that is willing to enforce it?

JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Is a "declaration of values" more than words if there is no power that is willing to enforce it?

Yes. Nobody directly enforces the policy papers or the Declaration of Independence. That doesn’t mean they don’t have corporeal value. In part, due to being translated into laws.

englishrookie 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Almost everything about societies except cities is just pretty words. Countries and most borders are just an abstraction. We fight for them because someone convinces us with words to do so. We could do the same for the UN and it would be a much nobler cause in most cases.

pfannkuchen 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Human territory is absolutely natural and exists in other apes also.

The feeling of defending territory is natural and is not words

Only what constitutes the territory to defend has been warped by words.

samus 2 days ago | parent [-]

Territory is not something physical that just exists. It's an idea, no matter whether a human or any other animal feels the need to enforce it.

pfannkuchen 2 days ago | parent [-]

Sure but it isn’t words, which was the claim.

Human food preferences are also just an idea by this standard.

A hunter gatherer tribe failing to defend its territory could result in its death just the same as not acquiring and eating appropriate food.

samus 2 days ago | parent [-]

That doesn't turn it into a physical reality like a stone or a stream of water that exists regardless of what animals think about it. Territories exist because they are defended. They are not obvious unless one deals with the means employed to defend it.

The need to defend might be a necessity for survival, but the desire to defend additional territory and resources has existed ever since humans have acquired the power to achieve more than the means of mere survival. Similar to food preferences, which become peculiar if there is plentitude, basic if tight, and sub-par in emergencies: during famines, sometimes people resort to eat grass to sate their feeling of hunger even though digesting it is an energetic net negative.

MarsIronPI a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Countries and most borders are just an abstraction.

Not true. Patriotism is very real. It's an affection for a group of people and for the ideals of those people. To some lesser extent it's also love for the geography of your land. But patriotism is rarer in the west than it once was. Also, if a country's territory is invaded by an enemy, at least some of its people will go to fight to protect their families from the oncoming enemies.

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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croes 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

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fleroviumna 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

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qayxc 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And this regulation violates this how exactly?

Lucasoato 2 days ago | parent [-]

Because if you need a written confirmation that may conditionally not be given, you don’t actually have the right.

qayxc 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

First of all you don't need it. Secondly, the regulation even states that the right is granted automatically anyway. Technically, the rule had been in place for the past 45+ years anyway - even when there was mandatory military service! - so it doesn't make any practical difference.

rustyhancock 2 days ago | parent [-]

Then they should remove the law this weekend. Apparently it is bureaucracy without purpose after all?

qayxc 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Apparently it is bureaucracy without purpose after all?

No it's not without purpose at all. The purpose is to know who could be drafted in a timely manner should the need arise. There's currently 2 major wars - sorry "special military operations" - happening, one of which in Europe.

A certain government involved in one of these simultaneously calls for allies to assist while at the same time openly questioning half a century of military alliances. So maybe this helps to understand why regulations like this make sense - even for people who never lived through a time when there was mandatory military service and take their own security for granted.

1over137 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It has a purpose: to be ready when/if needed.

samus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

At the moment, the law has no teeth since they cannot stop anyone from just leaving without return ticket, and nothing happens when you return. Of course it would be very easy to change that, and that's the reason why it exists.