| ▲ | roshin 2 days ago |
| Ukraine has been violating that for young men since the start of its war. |
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| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| In an attempt to preserve the rights of Ukrainian citizens in the long run. Surrendering to Russia would have more impact than the draft does. The UN acknowledges this conflict to some extent; https://www.ohchr.org/en/conscientious-objection |
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| ▲ | rustyhancock 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Shockingly sexist policy. And as per usual because its harmful to men no one cares. |
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| ▲ | beeforpork 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The constitution made it impossible to make a less sexist law, because it says that women cannot be forced to military service. It is an old document, and it is based on old role models. Modernizing the constitution would require 2/3 majority, and the government was already struggling with making a law at all. This is an explanation, not a justification. | | |
| ▲ | looshch 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The constitution made it impossible to make a less sexist law with the right level of public exposure citizens would surely have been able to put enough pressure on the government to make this happen. But instead zelensky kept repeating the talking points that we should not be concerned about the war because the risk had not changed since 2014. Near-zero effort was made to evacuate ukrainians living near the russian border or those who would be in the way of russian troops. The intelligence had been there for at least six months before the war began > and the government was already struggling with making a law at all what do you mean? | |
| ▲ | throwiuhh 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | jmm5 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In a scenario where you are losing a significant part of the population to war, it's better that it be men. | | |
| ▲ | everforward 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Only if you ignore free will. Feels unlikely that women will suddenly abandon monogamy and forced procreation à la the draft is probably very unpopular especially given that women would be a majority. Not that they’re wrong to disagree, but there are more conditions here than the biology of procreation. The modern answer would be immigration, and that’s gender-agnostic. | |
| ▲ | dudefeliciano 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | in a scenario where your country is on the verge of war, where will those women procreate? I imagine that those who can will leave the country ASAP | |
| ▲ | looshch 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | why? | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | Because a thousand women don't need a thousand men to make the next generation. | | |
| ▲ | looshch a day ago | parent [-] | | that argument is uninformed, check the birth rate in ukraine also check who are these refugees abroad: mostly women and children. How many will return? No one knows. Also what’s the incentive for women to return knowing there are far less options to marry? who will be working hard jobs where men are prevalent? what about the current generation? Who will be rebuilding the country from ruins? I’ve never seen women working in construction in ukraine also this is cynical, your position assumes it’s either men or women, not sharing the military service duty go learn the history and then come here to comment on the matter | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | > that argument is uninformed, check the birth rate in ukraine This has long been the argument for a male-only draft. One woman can make 1-2 babies every 9 months on average. It is difficult and expensive to speed that up; you can implant quadruplets and induce labor at six months, but that introduces all sorts of other problems. Sperm is much easier to obtain. > who will be working hard jobs where men are prevalent? Women, if too many men die in the war. > I’ve never seen women working in construction in ukraine This was also the case for the US in the 1940s. Women entered the workforce in large numbers for the first time. Plenty of predecent for this sort of shift. > go learn the history and then come here to comment on the matter As you can see from the above, this is perhaps advice you should follow first before yelling at others. | | |
| ▲ | looshch a day ago | parent [-] | | > This has long been the argument for a male-only draft. One woman can make 1-2 babies every 9 months on average.
It is difficult and expensive to speed that up; you can
implant quadruplets and induce labor at six months, but
that introduces all sorts of other problems. Sperm is
much easier to obtain. this argument is detached from ukrainian realities. Can ≠ will. Also have you checked the birth rate? Do you expect it to grow in a post-war context? > Women, if too many men die in the war so who will then raise these 1-2 babies every 9 months on average? If women need to replace men in the workforce, first they need to go through education and training. Along with having children, it’s incredibly hard to accomplish > Women entered the workforce in large numbers for
the first time. Plenty of precedent for this sort
of shift in the same sentence you say ‘for the first time’ and then ‘Plenty of precedent’. You either have no idea what ‘plenty’ means or you contradict yourself the states weren’t ruined like europe was. The large numbers you are talking about are only large compared to normal historical numbers and female population percentage also you completely ignore the cultural context, ukraine is not the states. The story of your country, which seems the only one you know, isn‘t as relevant as, for example, the history of ussr. We didn’t have a boomer generation. There are way too many differences for me to continue, so surely you are uneducated on the ussr history > yelling at others. yelling? Not a single exclamation point but still yelling? You have a rich imagination for sure edit: formatting | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | > Also have you checked the birth rate? Do you expect it to grow in a post-war context? Yes, birth rates tend to go up when wars end. > in the same sentence you say ‘for the first time’ and then ‘Plenty of precedent’. You either have no idea what ‘plenty’ means or you contradict yourself This is baffling. Women entering the workforce in the 1940s due to the war is the precedent. It happened throughout the developed world. We are now eighty years past that demonstration. > The story of your country, which seems the only one you know, isn‘t as relevant as, for example, the history of ussr. We didn’t have a boomer generation. There was indeed a birth rate spike in the 1940s in Russia. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1038013/crude-birth-rate... Unfortunately… Stalin. Side note: I have dual citizenship, so I’m not sure which one of them is “the only one” I know. |
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| ▲ | cindyllm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | lpcvoid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And russia has been violating this too, along with other much worse things, as usual. |
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| ▲ | cedws 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Hard to feel the same sympathy for Russian men to be honest, I've seen many gallivanting abroad, whilst majority of Ukrainian men are stuck either in hiding in their own country or have been sent to the front lines. Only a few got out early or by paying bribes. | | |
| ▲ | saidnooneever 2 days ago | parent [-] | | honestly i am happy for the russian and ukranian young men and women i meet here in NL each day. Glad for them they can dodge the draft. most simply drove out, some had more hastle than others. war is shit on all sides and thinking one or the other suffers less because you dont like their colours is very short sighted.... i think we had enough time by now to realise it. and dont call it cowardice if someone doesnt want to fight for a bunch of 'rich pricks' playin with their money while normal people get to die in the streets. It has never been good or normal and should never be. | | |
| ▲ | cedws 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's objectively worse on the Ukrainian side. Imagine you haven't been able to leave your house in 4 years for fear you'll be grabbed by a draft officer. Russians do not know this fear. To boot, many Russian men have been paid handsomely for their participation in the SMO and get to live nice lives abroad. | | |
| ▲ | sesqu 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Did you just forget about the mobilization drive Russia had in 2022, where they grabbed young men off streets and from their houses? It was very unpopular, lead to people fleeing the country, and was pushed out of the public eye as soon as they figured out how to forcefully volunteer people instead. | | |
| ▲ | Mikhail_Edoshin 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody grabbed anyone. It was an unusual, but otherwise a normal bureaucratic process. Got handed a paper, signed, have to appear. Many probably didn't have plans to go voluntarily, but felt it unmanly to dodge. I was at one of such sites and saw a man who got there too drunk and was handed over to the police; he was very disappointed he is not allowed go with the fellas. It wasn't hard to dodge; you could just refuse to take the papers pretending it's not you or get sick the very day or something like that. The system had a number and once it was reached (very quickly) no further action was necessary. The only change so far us that the employers started to follow their military tracking procedure to the letter; before that it was required but not really enforced, but now all the paperwork gets done by the book. Some people indeed left the country but those are the kind you don't want to have your back anyway. Forceful volunteering is pure imagination. At most it's intensive persuasion or a new way to get out of jail, but if you don't want to go, nobody will force you. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Nobody grabbed anyone Around the Moscow elite, no. In the outer provinces, we have ample evidence of forced conscription. |
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| ▲ | saghm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not like it's zero-sum though; the world outside Russia and as Ukraine isn't going to become so full that there's no room for more or them to leave to dodge fighting in a war, so the parent commenter can easily be happy for any of them regardless of their country of origin. |
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| ▲ | throw-the-towel 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Factually untrue, Russian men can and do leave the country. Also, nice whataboutism bro. | | |
| ▲ | yolo3000 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | How about Russians from abroad, do they often go back to Russia? | | |
| ▲ | throw-the-towel 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The men I know try not to go unless it's absolutely necessary. The women generally prance to Russia and back all the time. (Exceptions exist, of course.) |
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| ▲ | lpcvoid 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You started with bringing Ukraine up under an article about Germany, so how is your comment any less a whataboutism than mine? | | |
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| ▲ | kingleopold 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | wolvesechoes 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Nobody even questions why men in UKR. cannot leave the country Because the answer is obvious - Ukraine fights war. | | |
| ▲ | kingleopold 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Why is it only *forced for men? Does that sound equal and civil to you? note we are not living in middle ages and there is no world war. | | |
| ▲ | samus 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The constitution says so and at the moment it's unlikely for a qualified majority to be found to change it. It's as simple as that. | |
| ▲ | wolvesechoes 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Why is it only *forced for men? Because since mass armies are the case it always was so, and all can men do now is whine on the internet, because they are not going to do anything. > Does that sound equal and civil to you? Not really, but however it sounds has no impact of it being the case. > note we are not living in middle ages In middle ages most men had no obligation to fight wars. |
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| ▲ | randomNumber7 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can now simply change the gender in your passport as a german, so practically it would be very easy to get around this. But it is very easy to see from this all that some people are very vocal about equality when in reality they want privileges. |
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