|
| ▲ | tristanj an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Instead of targeting data centers, it's far easier to target the electrical substation that powers the datacenter. It's relatively simple to do. Transformers require oil to cool themselves, and if the coolant reservoir is damaged, then they overheat and shut off. This exact infrastructure attack occurred in North Carolina in 2022 [0], where someone fired bullets into the coolant reservoirs and caused a several day power outage. The perpetrator was never caught. It's speculated a foreign actor did this to gauge the response in a future wartime scenario. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_County_substation_attack |
| |
| ▲ | xoa an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >Instead of targeting data centers, it's far easier to target the electrical substation that powers the datacenter That has a lot of collateral damage that may or may not be desirable though. Simultaneously it might have quite a different long term effect right? If all the actual computers are unharmed they can be powered in other ways in an emergency, even if at much higher cost. Or powered back up later, the time lost might be militarily very significant but they're not gone. But how many people and companies actually have full functional decentralized clones of all programs and data? How many people and companies have devices that are locked to remote hosts they expect to check in on at least once in awhile even if they're not "cloud dependent"? What if all that was literally gone, a few thousand missiles or drones and data centers are all just completely erased including tape backups, everything, suddenly we're in a world where all that compute and data is poof. And without hurting anything else, no traditional war crimes either, no power or direct food or transport disruptions. Everyone is fine and healthy, except with this huge societal exocortex gone. | | |
| ▲ | nostrademons 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Any cloud engineer worth their salt is going to have their programs be stateless and their data replicated across multiple data centers. Many cloud engineers are not worth their salt, but working in Big Tech, this has been table stakes for 20+ years. There are regular disaster drills, both scheduled and unscheduled, that test what happens when a datacenter disappears. Ideally everything transparently fails over, and most of the time, this is what happens. The bigger problem is that a war is likely to hit multiple levels of infrastructure at the same time. So the datacenters will come under attack, but so will the fiber cables, and the switching apparatuses, and the power plants, and likely also the humans who maintain it all. High-availability software is usually designed for 1-2 components to fail at once and then to transparently route around them. If large chunks of the infrastructure all disappear at once, you can end up in some very weird cascading failure situations. | | |
| ▲ | electronsoup 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > worth their salt That's a big assumption. Often there's no time to do things right, or no money, or lack of oversight, and so on. Not every company is staffed by empowered and highly motivated staff | | |
|
| |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Both seem like easy targets. Hitting the datacenters themselves could results in more permanent damage. | |
| ▲ | stygiansonic an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack (Perpetrators also not caught) |
|
|
| ▲ | x0xMaximus 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I recently wrote a little on this https://generalresearch.com/detail-oriented/how-to-seed-a-cl... While we're completely at the mercy of datacenters that we can colo out racks / power / upstreams from, it's a worthy discussion for any technology company that wants some amount of digital sovereignty over their presence online and ability to provide their service independent of a hypervisor / cloud provider (or even just a centralized location). The best option is simply to anycast from any many distinct countries that are either neutral, or unlikely to be involved with any global or regional conflicts at any given time. You don't want them getting bombed at the same time! |
|
| ▲ | nostrademons an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In any significant war the Internet is going to go down. That's what has happened empirically in countries undergoing significant wars or social unrest, like Russia, Iran, Yemen, Ethiopia, Syria, Myanmar, and Afghanistan. While IP packet routing itself may have been designed to survive a nuclear war, there have been many centralized systems built on top of it (DNS? Edge caching? Cloudflare? Big Tech) that are essential to the functioning of what we know of as the Internet. If your threat model includes war and you want to have some of the conveniences of the Internet, you should make plans for how to host local copies of data and develop local-scale communications for the people you regularly talk with. The Internet is too big of a security and propaganda risk for governments to allow it to continue to exist when they are engaged in a real existential war. |
|
| ▲ | kjellsbells 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ironically,the classical target, Washington DC, is less than 25 miles down a very simple highway to Northern Virginia's massive datacenter alley. Our national defense is ultimately predicated on heavy ordnance not being able to show up undetected in this part of the world. Hence the path preferred by attackers of burrowing into Azure signing keys or ransomware attacks on the grid. Much less hardware to transport. |
|
| ▲ | asdff an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The way everything is so overleveraged on the success of these companies being packed into ETFs, it would probably take down the whole economy. You'd be able to shut down even more manufacturing without even destroying it just from economic forces. That is unless the US responds by nationalizing everything, which they won't. They'd rather it go to smithereens so someone has a chance to be made wildly rich rebuilding. |
|
| ▲ | yyyk 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are ways to shield data centers if one is serious about it... e.g. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/oracle-opens-first... |
|
| ▲ | pvtmert an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed that Govt/Military runs on AWS/Azure/whatever. They care about "security" in a "virtual" sense, but I presume soon we'll see requirements like: "Must Have: Missile Defence Perimeter" next to the "Must be FIPS compliant". |
| |
| ▲ | dgxyz an hour ago | parent [-] | | My partner works in that space. Sovereignty and self-sufficiency are big topics. The US centric cloud at least is killing itself through geopolitical risks for gov customers outside the US. Literally number one operational risk now. | | |
| ▲ | mystraline 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yep. Look at my last comment. Its exactly how to mitigate risk related to the nation you're in, in a data sense. The country opposing the country you're in won't extradite. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | mooreds an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Don't forget underseas cables: https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ |
|
| ▲ | georgemcbay an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > the first time I've really thought hard about how big a target data centers would be in any sort of modern peer war Given the rapid and increasing rise of AI use in actually fighting wars, I suspect data centers won't just be a big target, they will eventually be the #1 priority target. Taking them offline won't just be of interest in terms of economic damage, it will be a direct strategic goal toward militarily winning the conflict. |
| |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Until it is clear that the use of AI in "actually fighting wars" doesn't put senior military people at risk of never being able to leave their own country again for fear of prosecution for war crimes, I'm not so sure that the "rapid and increasing rise" is going to actually be a thing. | | |
| ▲ | georgemcbay an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Until it is clear that the use of AI in "actually fighting wars" doesn't put senior military people at risk of never being able to leave their own country again for fear of prosecution for war crimes I don't believe that's a real concern that the senior military people have anymore. War crimes are legal in 2026. That ship has sailed (and was double tap struck by the US Navy). Nobody is doing anything about it. | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | War crimes are unlikely to be prosecuted within the USA. On this we agree. Which is why I specifically mentioned the risk of not being able to leave the country, because I'd be willing to wager a bit more than international prosecutions for war crimes are significantly more likely, and would be occuring in a world that is growing noticeably more "America needs to be taught a lesson" in spirit. | |
| ▲ | edgyquant an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | War crimes have never been anything more than a way the west can punish its enemies. It’s hilarious people think this norm continuing is some refutation of the system as designed. | | |
| ▲ | georgemcbay an hour ago | parent [-] | | > War crimes have never been anything more than a way the west can punish its enemies That's a fair point, the major change isn't that we suddenly started committing war crimes, it is that we've dropped all pretenses of trying to justify why what we did isn't one. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Isn't that an improvement? It seems better to have people who are honest about what they're doing, even when committing war crimes. At least then people can have an honest conversation about whether the policy is working. One of the most frustrating things about wars is people adopt policies that don't advance their objectives and then lie about what they're doing, what happened and why. This sets up an environment where militarys do things that aren't even in their own interests, let alone anyone else's, and the public discourse is busy arguing about some wild imaginary scenario that isn't related. Better to have people focused on the real world and accurately understanding both (1) what the policy was and (2) what the outcome of the policy was. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | propagandist an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Hague Invasion Act takes care of that. | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That would require a future president to choose to use the authorization. President Davis The First isn't going to lift a finger to stop the ICC prosecuting former Secretary of Defense Hegseth, and, I suspect, neither would quite a few other potential future presidents. |
|
| |
| ▲ | 49287 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | If they hit AI data centers, 50% of software developers will convert to Islam. :) | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Most of the world that did convert to Islam, did it out of pragmatism. That goes for Catholicism as well. Though a special part of my heart goes out to the pragmatic Quakers of the early US, who largely seem to have done it just to have a chance to thumb their nose at the government. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | trhway an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >We've built trillions and trillions of dollars in infrastructure in the peace time since, and it seems fairly concentrated. and thus is easily defended. It would be a pocket change - tens of millions - for AMZN to put say a Rheinmetall Skyshield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyshield at the data center. |
| |
| ▲ | afiori an hour ago | parent [-] | | Considering how hard US military bases and radar systems have been hit (and those are not city-sized target) I am unconvinced that even AMZN's pocket change could realiably protect against the kind of attacks we see in this war | | |
| ▲ | trhway 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How they were hit? Multiple drones overwhelming relatively small number of air defense systems. Systems like Patriot are great against several very capable targets like ballistic missiles. Such (expensive centralized) systems do much worse against multiple widespread targets like an armada of low flying low speed drones (add to that low speed cut-off filter to avoid hitting general aviation and the likes). Point defense systems like Skyshield (or even that very old and cheap - $2M - Gepard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakpanzer_Gepard ) work wonderfully against all those drones coming in. Heck, even just soldiers with MANPADs would have easily shot down those drones (you just have to distribute those soldiers to all those strategic objects which hasn't been done) We have classic situation here - everybody have been watching Ukraine war for 4 years, yet nobody has prepared for such style of war. >I am unconvinced that even AMZN's pocket change could realiably protect against the kind of attacks we see in this war No even low flying drone - pretty typical situation of top Russian cruise missile shot down by Gepard https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zdbvim/a_ukr... Also AMZN has its own drones dept - in "hot" zones in "hot" times they can put several people with drones (in the high speed configuration) to be used for interception. This is basically how Ukranians have been doing, and that is an experience they are now exporting to the Gulf states. https://www.hisutton.com/Ukrainian-Interceptor-Drones.html |
|
|