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pier25 4 hours ago

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development.

After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left.

In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech and then removing it will be quite obvious. This will be studied for decades to come. Reminds me of the Dutch kids that were borm during the 1944-1945 Dutch famine.

https://www.ohsu.edu/school-of-medicine/moore-institute/dutc...

fasterik 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake.

I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home.

The real problem is separating reading/writing skills from tech skills. We shouldn't stop teaching handwriting just because typing exists. And being able to read long books and essays teaches fundamental cognitive skills like attention, focus, and information processing.

kpw94 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming)

For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on those at the computer lab (as it's been done since the 90s in many schools around the world)

But for any other course such as Math, English (or whichever primary language in your country), second languages, history, etc. : that's where using tech is a mistake

A bit of tech is ok, but it cannot be "everyone does their homework and read lesson on a iPad/Chromebook"

rz2k 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I am pretty skeptical about the value of learning to build websites. I think it is too tempting for students to devote significant time to something that is not foundational knowledge and where they won't get any valuable feedback anyway.

It makes me think back to my writing assignments in grades 6-12. I spent considerable time making sure the word processor had the exact perfect font, spacing, and formatting with cool headers, footers, and the footnotes, etc. Yet, I wouldn't even bother to proofread the final text before handing it in. What a terrible waste of a captive audience that could have helped me refine my arguments and writing style, rather than waste their time on things like careless grammatical errors.

Anyway, I do agree with the idea of incorporating Excel, and even RStudio for math and science as tools, especially if they displace Ed-tech software that adds unnecessary abstractions, or attempts to replace interaction with knowledgeable teachers. One other exception might be Anki or similar, since they might move rote memorization out of the classroom, so that more time can be spent on critical thinking.

fasterik 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition? Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? Should kids be forced to use physical copies of newspapers and journal articles instead of learning how to look things up in a database?

I'm all for going back to analog where it makes sense, but it seems wrongheaded to completely remove things that are relevant skills for most 21st century careers.

something765478 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition?

I don't think there's anything wrong with showing kids some videos every now and then. I still have fond memories of watching Bill Nye.

> Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python?

No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way we don't allow kids learning multiplication and division to use calculators.

graemep an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Those are great examples. Not familiar with Desmos, but 3Blue1Brown style animations are great.

The problem is that people seem to want to go to extremes. Either go all out on doing everything in tablets or not use any technology in education at all.

its not just work skills, its also a better understanding that is gained from things such as the maths animations you mentioned.

bpt3 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Until most kids are about 12 - 14 years old, they're learning much more basic concepts than you're describing. I don't think anyone is trying to take intro to computer science out of high schools or preventing an advanced student younger than that from the same.

I would rather a teacher have to draw a concept on a board than have each student watch an animation on their computer. Obviously, the teacher projecting the animation should be fine, but it seems like some educators and parents can't handle that and it turns into a slippery slope back to kids using devices.

So for most classrooms full of students in grades prior to high school, the answer to your list of (presumably rhetorical) questions is "Yes."

liveoneggs 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

what's funny is that they don't even teach basic tech literacy but just rely on kids to figure it out!

ninalanyon 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> how to touch type

What for? I've been writing computer programs and documentation since 1969 and I can't touch type. I've never felt enough pressure to do it. I can still type faster than I can think. When I'm writing most of my time is spent thinking not tapping the keys.

abustamam 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I learned how to touch type in middle school with school software like Mario teaches typing and Mavis beacon. I peaked around 80wpm and I was faster than 90% of my classmates.

A few years ago I invested in a rectilinear split keyboard which has a slightly different layout, but much more ergonomic. But interestingly I can now type 120wpm+.

I think touch typing is very similar to learning penmanship (and I guess cursive to an extent). If I followed the exact rules I learned about handwriting in school, I'd have much more legible handwriting but I'd write so much more slowly. Instead I my own way, which lets me get my thoughts out quickly, albeit not as neat as "correct" penmanship. Fortunately typing is much more lenient on this front.

datsci_est_2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You typed out this message by hitting individual keys as your eyes searched for them? Isn’t that mentally exhausting?

dathinab 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In many cases the understanding of the term "touch typing" isn't just "typing without looking" but a very specific way of doing so.

You should be able to type without looking at your keyboard.

But the specific 5 finger arrangement taught often as "tough typing" isn't needed for that, some common issues:

- it being taught with an orthogonal arrangement of your hand to they keyboard, that is nearly guaranteed to lead to carpal tunnel syndrome if you have a typical keyboard/desk setup. Don't angle your wrist when typing.

- Pinky fingers of "average" hands already have issues reaching the right rows, with extra small or extra short hands they often aren't usable as intended with touch typing.

xboxnolifes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You dont need to learn to touch type to avoid searching out each key individually. You just need experience.

I was taught touch typing as a kid. None of it took. I dont use the home row. I developed into the gamer home row hand positioning for typing.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I guess this is technically correct in the same way that stenographers and highly-ergonomic alternative-layout keyboard users also don’t “touch type” according to a strict definition.

If you’re capable of typing quick enough to publicly take meeting notes, then it’s fine. But if you can’t, I could see it being professionally embarrassing in the same way that not understanding basic arithmetic could be professionally embarrassing.

That’s the kind of (in)capability we’re talking about when it comes to Gen Z. Like not knowing ctrl-c ctrl-v.

Guestmodinfo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Zen Z doesn't types to store knowledge. They would rather record the lecture or the meeting. I put aside my fone and put it on record while I am carefully listening to the meeting. I'm not even zen z. I would rather write than type

xboxnolifes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My point is that there's almost nothing to teach about it. You just need to use a keyboard enough to build experience.

What could you possibly teach about touch typing besides just telling people to do typing tests or write papers over and over again?

People aren't bad typers because they weren't taught. They're bad typer because they dont type.

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have an "unofficial" typing style. I tried learning official touch typing but it caused immediate hand cramps.

Touch typing would probably be faster, but I've never found slow typing speeds a limiting factor in either writing or software dev.

alecbz 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Although [touch typing] refers to typing without using the sense of sight to find the keys ... the term is often used to refer to a specific form of touch typing that involves placing the eight fingers in a horizontal row along the middle of the keyboard (the home row) and having them reach for specific other keys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing

I think they're referring to the latter.

datsci_est_2015 2 hours ago | parent [-]

With such a strict definition the OP’s comment becomes basically meaningless. They could be referring to using index fingers only. They could be using an alternative keyboard layout. They could mostly be using left-hand only. Pretty much any WPM between 1 and 200 seems possible with the statement: “I don’t keep my fingers on home row in between key presses.”

kqr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fast typing is not about throughput, it's about latency. If I only needed to type fast enough to produce the 125-something lines of code I get into production per week, I would be able to work at a word a minute. Alas, that's not how that works.

https://entropicthoughts.com/typing-fast-is-about-latency-no...

fasterik 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In general, mastery involves taking the basic mechanics of something and making them completely automatic, freeing up cognitive resources for higher level processes. Expert pianists don't need to look down at their hands when sight reading.

dathinab 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> touch type

can even be harmful

IFF we interpret "touch typing" as the typical thought typing method and not just "typing without looking at the keyboard".

In general key arrangement traces back to physical limitations of type writers not ergonomics and layout choice isn't exactly ergonomic based either.

But even if it where, the biggest issue of touch typing is that it's often thought around the idea of your hands being somewhat orthogonal to your keyboard, _which they never should be_ (if you use a typical keyboard on a typcal desk setup) as it leads to angling you hands/wrist which is nearly guaranteed to cause you health issues long term if you are typing a lot.

The simple solution is to keep your wrist straight leading to using the keyboard in a way where you hand is at an angle to it's layout instead of orthogonal which in turn inhibits perfect touch typing. But still allows something close to it.

As keys are arranged in shifted columns this kinda works surprisingly well, an issue is the angle differs depending on left/right hand :/

Split or alice style keyboards can also help a bit, but I often feel man designs kinda miss the point. Especially many supposedly ergonomic keyboards aren't aren't really that ergonomic, especially if your hand is to large, small, or otherwise unusual...

Which brings us to the next point, human autonomy varies a lot, some people have just some very touch typing incompatible hands, like very short pinky fingers making that finger unusable for typical touch typing (even with normal hands it's a bit suboptimal which is why some keyboards shift the outer rows down by half a row).

pier25 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's important that children gain basic technical literacy

They certainly will at home.

> I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home.

In which country?

I live in Mexico and even here you really need to go to the poorest families to find a home without a laptop. Even those families have multiple smartphones. Today a smartphone is not a good replacement for a laptop but maybe in a couple of years it will be.

fasterik 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Even if they have a computer at home, that doesn't mean they're practicing the relevant skills. Touch typing, word processing, researching a topic online, etc. are things that need deliberate practice. Based on my own experience, using a computer at home 99% of the time meant playing video games.

The following article suggests that in the United States, about 59% of lower income households have a laptop or desktop computer, compared to 92% of upper income households.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/06/22/digital-d...

graemep an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes. Kids can learn a lot of they do use computers to do things like research things.

mort96 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Many parents don't themselves have the technical literacy to properly teach things like what thr filesystem is.

ajsnigrutin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home.

Some of us "a bit older" seem to have gone through a golden era of tech, where we actually learned that tech en-masse. In a class of maybe 30 students, around 20, 25 of them were able to configure dial up modems, come on IRC (servers, ports, channels needed to be configured) and do a bunch of other stuff our parents mostly considered "black magic" (except for a few tech enthusiasts), and the general concensus was, that every generation will know more and be "better" than the previous generation.

A few decades have passed.. and kids can't type anymore on a keyboard, can't print, have no idea what can be changed in the settings on their smartphone, don't know how to block ads, can't cheat in games anymore (except via pay-to-win) and have no idea where to change their instagram password.

So, now you have boomers, who can't use computers and kids, who can't use computers anymore.

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Boomers are split between a demographic that is very computer literate, having worked in/around science and tech for decades, and a demo that isn't remotely literate and may not even be online.

The latter is a fairly small demo though - supposedly around a third.

The split is more by education than by age.

Kids can use computers - phones - as app appliances, but they don't understand computers.

Peak literacy is young Gen X and older millennials.

qurren 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development.

Is it possible that there are alternative ways than handwriting for cognitive development?

Probably in 500 BC they said you had to hack at stone with a chisel for cognitive development, and then someone invented the pen and paper.

The difference is the task had to change as well. People were able to write thousands of pages (rather than a few stone blocks) over their education, and making full use of that ability in order to "keep the brain CPU close to 100%" was a necessary concurrent change in order to preserve cognitive devolpment.

rz2k 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

At least around 370 BC, in Plato's Phaedrus, Socrates expresses a strong opinion against writing of any kind through a conversation between the Egyptian gods Theuth and Thamus discussing the invention of writing.

Thamus:

> "For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise."

https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=3894

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-rhetoric/#Pha

Swizec 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Probably in 500 BC they said you had to hack at stone with a chisel for cognitive development, and then someone invented the pen and paper.

You are forgetting that in 500 BC literacy rates were well under 10%. Nobody optimized for anyone’s cognitive development.

The only cognitive development people cared about was for the rich (aristocrats, royalty, some merchants, etc). Much of that happened orally through hands-on tutoring by an army of people specifically employed to create the next generation of leaders.

Anyone would thrive with that much resources thrown at them. And I’m pretty sure many of them considered reading and writing beneath them. They got people for that.

graemep an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe not that early, but writing did eventually undermine the ability to memorise things. It used to be common for people to memorise long works - it is one reason why epic poetry was popular and designed to be memorable. Memorising even a few hundred lines is unusual now.

I wonder whether it has contributed to the evolution of smaller brains: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240517-the-human-brain-...

Barrin92 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Is it possible that there are alternative ways than handwriting for cognitive development?

there are countless of ways to develop fine motor skills, but handwriting replacing a chisel was not a step down because handwriting is a demanding task in contrast to the, by nature, impoverished interaction with digital rather than analog devices. I help in a maker-space and you can literally tell young people apart who only ever interacted with a phone compared to kids who play an instrument, work with tools etc.

Additionally a pen and paper come cheap compared to a tablet. It was always the perfect example of a kind of "digitalism". "oh we're so cool, we use technology, let's give everyone tablets, we're a modern country". Just expensive nonsense in the absence of educational standards and physical development.

dtdynasty 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I do think the general purpose screens of today are doing a disservice for education. There are too many possible distractions a child isn't prepared to resist yet. But it could enable more advanced workflow for personalized learning.

I think the k-shaped economy where some people are financially succeeding while the rest go through hardship is a reflection of a k-shaped education system where those who are able to ignore the distractions and succeed are doing well. The top of the k can use more edtech as they just need tools for further educational attainment. Things modern edtech can bring. The bottom of the k has different needs.

weslleyskah 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tech can save you from a bad educational environment. I think kids need extreme amounts of freedom with guidance on what are the best tools to be used for learning. From visualizing linear algebra and analytic geometry problems to piracy. If anything, the teachers need to improve their tech literacy.

There is no way to be done away with tech on school, but some balance and freedom must be achieved.

bpt3 an hour ago | parent [-]

> I think kids need extreme amounts of freedom with guidance on what are the best tools to be used for learning.

Why an "extreme" amount of freedom?

> There is no way to be done away with tech on school, but some balance and freedom must be achieved.

Yes there is. Students were educated just a couple decades ago without it. We can easily return to that style.

weslleyskah an hour ago | parent [-]

>Why an "extreme" amount of freedom?

As dangerous as this sounds, with guidance, I think it could be done. Government and public institutions love to lock the environment into something safe but useless for further learning and adaptability

raxxorraxor 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Using tech also meant you got an iPad because otherwise teachers and IT would be overwhelmed. That the kids were already much more apt at using such devices was secondary.

In the context of general education I can understand the strategy, it could be a useful learning environment, but certainly not if it is about digital education, tech knowledge or general engineering. Nobody becomes an engineer in a prison, you need to give your users freedom.

hn_throwaway_99 3 hours ago | parent [-]

An iPad absolutely doesn't make kids "better at technology", if anything it makes them worse because it just wraps everything up in a braindead simple package for consumption.

Ironically, Gen Z was supposed to lead the way as "digital natives", but in many ways they are (speaking broadly) much less technically adapt than, say, Gen Xers, because Gen Xers had to struggle to figure stuff out because it hadn't been all wrapped up with a bow yet, and thus we got to understand the details of how thing worked at a deeper, more fundamental level.

I recall reading some articles about how many Gen Zers new to the workplace didn't even understand how file systems or directories worked, because things like iPads largely hide those details from the end user.

And to emphasize, I'm not dumping on Gen Z - they're, like everyone, just a product of the environment they grew up in. But I strongly disagree that getting access to an iPad makes anyone more technologically adept.

Suffocate5100 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're assuming tech will ever be removed.

JKCalhoun 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Kind of why Khan Academy makes me cringe.

zer00eyz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake.

I have several friends who work in education.

At one point there were computer labs in school, there was education around computing. The pervasiveness of computing killed these programs, along with various kinds of skill based classes, like wood/auto/home economics (cooking and or sewing).

All of them tend to agree that the losses of these programs is, in hindsight, problematic. Many of them think that a return to computer education (and conveying deeper insight) would be a net positive.

> EdTech

To a person, every one I know thinks their EdTech platforms suck. One of them is in a support role as part of their job and often tells me stories of how lamentable the software and faculties interactions with it is/are.

"Progress is at fault" is a tale as old as time: https://xkcd.com/1227/