Solar panels at Lidl? Plug-in versions set to appear in shops

Every installed PV-panel is a dozen barrels of oil (eq.) less CO2 in the atmosphere. Plus, so much fun to generate your own power! Can highly recommend it, even starting small.

It's addictive though. Living in the center of the city (The Hague, NL), with a home battery, I'm now 100% self-sufficient electrically for 10 months of the year.

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SCHiM an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Hey jstsch, would you mind answering some questions?

- Did you need/use an electrician to set this up? - How much KWh capacity do your batteries have? - What about fire safety? Did you install outside, or inside? - I assume dec/jan are the months you're not fully self-sufficient, are you allowed to charge from grid to do arbitrage over time, or is that another can of worms?

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leonidasrup an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

How many barrels of oil (eq.) are required to manufacture and transport the PV panel?

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muskstinks an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Its estimated that a PV panel is co2 neutral aver 2 years.

And the great thing is: this is only if the panel was produced with fossil fuels. So due to increase in green energy everywere, this number goes down too and a PV can easily be used for 15 years and after. After that it might just be more economicly to reinvest in a new set of PV panels while the old ones can be sold and used somewere else.

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kstenerud an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The oil payback (in terms of the panel and associated gear) is about 1.5 years, with a 25-30 year lifetime operating window.

This is with today's efficiencies. They are of course improving.

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projektfu an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

About 1/10 or so of the output of the panel, e.g. 1 barrel of input energy making and transporting panels saves 10 barrels in fossil fuel energy. That's a rough number assuming a particular mix of oil based energy and no energy cost to procuring the fossil fuels used in the comparison.

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guntars an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you are curious about it, why don’t you go and find the answer and then let us know too, no?

	▲	ceejayoz an hour ago \| parent [-]
		It’s a new account that has posted only pro nuclear and anti solar/wind stuff since its inception.

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_aavaa_ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Less than it takes to manufacture and transports the barrels of oils it replaces.

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jacknews an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fewer and fewer, as the whole world electrifies.

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Epa095 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The usual carbon payback period for solar panels is 1-4 years.

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yenepho an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think (obviously) the OP is implying a net save here.

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Fokamul an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

That's 3rd world country problem, British people (with salary in top places of Europe) must save money!

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pch00 an hour ago | parent [-]

Britain has the 8th-most expensive electricity in the world[1], seems prudent that a Brit would try to be more self-sufficient in terms of generation?

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-e...

	▲	Fokamul 2 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Ok. On your map, let's say the source is valid, UK has $0.4. I'm from CZ, we have $0.35. UK has more than double median salary, DOUBLE. Which means that in some cities it will be actually more like 2x or 3x smaller. But price of electricity is more or less same in the whole country here. Don't tell me something about expensive electricity and saving money. Because on top of that, let's check affordable housing stats https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/affordabl... Yep, one of the worst in EU, yaay.

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kleiba an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Germany, where Lidl is originally from, you can already order them online in their store. This is a variety for your balcony: https://www.lidl.de/p/vale-gmbh-balkonkraftwerk-ecoflow-860-...

Product Features:

- Name: VALE MiniPV 880-EF8N

- Control: Free App

- Communication: WiFi 2.4 GHz

- Performance: max. 800 W

- Tension: approx. 230 V

- Frequency: 50 Hz

- Power supply: Solar inputs: up to 60 V, mains current 230 V

- Protection rating: IP67

- Material: Solar modules: glass and aluminium frame

- Inverter: Cast aluminium

- Dimensions: approx. L 172.2 x W 113.4 x H 3 cm (per solar module) approx. L 25,3 x W 22.2 x H 3.5 cm (inverter)

- Weight: approx. 56 kg

- Scope of delivery: 2 x Premium solar panels, each 440WP, Black, Bifazial; 1 x Premium inverter 800 Watt with WiFi; 1 x connection cable (5 m), safety plug; Quick start guide

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raddan 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How does panel shut-off work for emergency responders? Where I live, a solar energy system is required to have a shut off switch. For example, my system has a big red handle mounted on the side of the house. This is important not just for first responders like firefighters but also for linemen repairing downed lines, which are pretty common where I live (a mountainous rural area).

Given that these store-bought panels are being plugged into house AC, it follows that they have built-in inverters. Many grid-tied inverters are “grid follow”, meaning that they adjust themselves to grid frequency/phase. So, just speculating here… maybe the inverter senses when the mains go down and turns itself off? I would love to know from an EE what is actually happening wrt safety.

	▲	cillian64 33 minutes ago \| parent \| next [-]
		It'll be the same as larger inverters for roof-top solar - they are constantly monitoring the mains cycle and will shut off if the voltage (or probably frequency too?) goes out of range, let alone drops out entirely. The relevant standards in the UK are G98/G99.
	▲	raphaelj 33 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		These inverters have to switch off if they cannot detect a grid signal, or if the grid frequency/voltage goes out of the safe range. Same legislation as the non-plug&play inverters.

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raphaelj 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We legalized these in Belgium last year.

I bought a 1600Wc + 1.9KWh kit (Ecoflow Stream) for +/- 1300€ last summer. It took us about 2h to install (we had to setup a new plug outside), and I already saved 200€+ since July. I am expecting to save about 350€ per year.

Also, as u/jstch said, it's extremely fun to setup and generate your own power!

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modo_mario a few seconds ago | parent | next [-]

Did you need to get it certified? I think the limit for DIY balcony panels here in Belgium was about 800W.

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gib444 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A 3.7 year ROI would be incredible (and fairly uncommon AIUI)

South facing?

	▲	raphaelj an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		House is facing South, but I'm laying them flat on the floor for economic and aesthetic reasons, with some 3D printed brick-based ballast [1]. Buying supports for PV is actually less economical than buying additional PV panels. -- [1] https://imgur.com/a/tDPevmM
	▲	muskstinks an hour ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Mine was around 4 years and its west south + a tree in the middle. So spring and autom the tree is no problem but in summer lunch hpeak there is shadow on it.

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Fokamul an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

And how does it work there?

You have special electric meter and you are distributing solar power into the grid outside of your household?

Or you don't distribute electricity into the grid?

	▲	pjc50 an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		The special definition of "balcony solar" is that it avoids most of those requirements. It seems this is usually done by adding a clamp meter to the input to the house, which sends a control signal to the panel inverter over Wifi to reduce output if it would be feeding back. (this is country dependent)
	▲	raphaelj an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		You have to register to the utility, but that's just a form to fill with the model and power of the kit. With a e-meter, you will get compensated when you're generating a surplus (+/- €0.04/kWh last time I checked). However, thanks to the battery, I'm self-consuming almost all that electricity, saving around €0.30/kWh. Expect 800kWh of annual production per 1kW of panels.
	▲	ragebol an hour ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		My guess as a Dutch guy, not 100% familiar with our neighboring country's rules etc): Yes, exporting to the grids. If a house has an old Ferraris meter, it will rotate backwards or a new, smart(er) meter, that has a separate counter for delivery back to the grid.

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gcanyon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For anyone curious, it appears that quality/output varies widely. Here's a video review of some smaller panels by Project Farm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVkJKCoRATs

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Klaster_1 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Man, I'd buy these in a heartbeat if our local Cyprus regulations allowed for these. Participating in green transition as an immigrant renter sucks.

	▲	rickydroll a minute ago \| parent [-]
		Check with your local utility. Here, (MA, USA), we can't run classic balcony solar (feeds the grid when you produce more than you consume). But we can run zero-export solar (never feeding the grid, but dialing back the inverter when you produce more than you consume). The economics behind battery-backed zero-export solar are interesting because they keep your local solar energy local, and you can extract maximum benefit from the system. Also, if you have enough batteries and TOD rates for grid power, you can store grid energy when it's cheap (overnight) and use it locally when it's expensive. Our local utility, National Grid, has a program where, if you have the right inverter-battery combination, they will buy power from you during peak-load periods, and you can make a couple of grand a year. Batteries, especially local ones, change the dynamics of power generation and use. It's amazing and wonderful.

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singularity2001 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wouldn't it make much more sense to deliver them with a battery? How would you connect a battery to such system?

	▲	ajb 8 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		The UK regs update[1] mentions a battery, but you have to pay for it so I don't have the details. It appears your could legally install one of these panels on the 15th of this month, but there presumably won't be any certified to comply with the regs on sale yet. [1] https://electrical.theiet.org/amendment-4-updates-to-18th-ed...

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timonoko an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Last time I bought a panel from Lidl, it worked only on very sunny day. Very Strange.

Inspection revealed it had two 6 Volt 10 Watt panels in parallel and then 12V to 5V USB-converter.

When panels were reconnected in series it was quite OK.

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muskstinks an hour ago | parent [-]

What do you mean? Do you mean small solar panel for smartphones? Because the panels in the article are over a square meter big. Mine make 200-400 watts on sunny days

	▲	timonoko an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Yes. But 20W panel is panel too. Little worried about Lidl-quality also on larger scale.

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hkpack 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I tried to set up Bluetti solar panel on my balcony in a similar way, but the efficiency was abysmal because of the angle to the sun.

I wonder for how many people it will work in practice?

Putting panels on the roof should be much more efficient…

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mememememememo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Any dangers from plugging this in to a socket?

Does it need its own earth? Will it switch off if it detects a residual current? Can it handle spikes in load?

	▲	muskstinks an hour ago \| parent [-]
		No your normal socket can be used the other way around without issues and that reverse load doesn't create a problem. Its even reducing your load on your main line beause the energy directly flows into the next consumer. German socket has earth, thats fine. It has protection mechanism and shuts down if it can't sync to the powergrid. The panels only produce (in peak!) 400-800 watts. Thats not an issue.

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muskstinks 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have one on my balcony. 400 Euros and it saves me 10% of my energy bill.

works well and is probably now refinanced.

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lnsru 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which energy bill? Monthly or yearly?

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progbits 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Beautiful thing about percentages...

	▲	tbrownaw an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Well, "yearly", "monthly, in the summer", and "monthly, in the winter" could plausibly all be different numbers.
	▲	oneeyedpigeon 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Yeah, "how much is 10% of your energy bill" would be a much more useful question!

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latexr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s the same thing. Say you have a bill of 120€/year. On average that comes to 10€/month (120€ divided by 12 months). If you have save 10% a month you save 1€, which after 12 months becomes a saving of 12€. Now do that yearly: 10% of 120€ is… 12€.

	▲	citrin_ru an hour ago \| parent [-]
		10% of saving for July's or August monthly bill will give less than 10% saving for the year as in the winter solar output is lower.

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muskstinks an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I pay 100 Euros per month energy bill and save 10% of it so 10 Euros per month or 120 Euros per year.

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creddit an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Secondly unfortunately

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Hamuko 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you paying for electricity and transfer on a separate schedule or something?

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Fokamul an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How is this handled in your country? We're talking only about solar panels which plugs directly into your main.

Because here, small country in EU, this is not allowed since it would mean ridiculous investment into electric infrastructure.

It's heavily regulated and you need special electric meter, license, etc. and still price of electricity is negative in certain times during the day, because everyone who could, got their solar power plant from EU subsidies.

	▲	bildung an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		In Germany there was zero investment into the electric infrastructure, but the power allowed to flow from the panels into the grid is currently limited to 800W for this type of system. Seems to work fine. Larger systems still need a license.
	▲	Hamuko an hour ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Seems like they're illegal as hell in Finland. https://tukes.fi/-/ala-kayta-pistorasiaan-kytkettavaa-aurink... If you want solar panels without having to get an electrician, you'd need to connect them to a battery that's not connected to the mains.

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yostrovs an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've been seeing headlines of this sort last few weeks. It points to Europe preparing for the next time the Hormuz is blocked off. But are there actual actions taken beyond those that save 10 percent on an apartment's electricity bills? Are there large scale mitigation measures that would actually soften the impact of another energy shortage in a serious way?

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gib444 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't mean this lightly: you absolutely can not trust the average Brit to safely install these on a balcony.

If they think they can get an ounce more sunshine, they'll hang it over the edge, badly

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afh1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do Europeans need permission from their governors to buy solar panels? I bet you also need to pay taxes on the energy you generate even though you alleviate the infrastructure need.

	▲	kstenerud an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Because those "governors" need to first ensure that their grids and home electrical systems are equipped to handle a solar system pumping into the house power system. You speak as though that were a bad thing. I'd rather not have people accidentally burning their houses down. Once it's approved for an area, you go to your local shop, buy an approved PV system, and plug it in. No fuss, no worries, and your insurer must cover it.
	▲	lukaslalinsky an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		You need permission to connect it to the grid.
	▲	mememememememo an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		If you pay tax on generated energy they would have to let you deprecate the cost of the panel as a cost. Would be interesting as to where that lands and if it makes much tax revenue at all.
	▲	pjc50 an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Everywhere has electrical safety regulations.
	▲	Fokamul an hour ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		I think this is ridiculous misconception, never heard of that you cannot buy solar panels in EU. The post is about permission to plug solar panels into your main electricity. Eg.: Small EU country, definitely not allowed and under huge fines. Without proper equipment, solar power plant license etc. etc.