Remix.run Logo
everdrive 12 hours ago

Lawyers are playing Calvinball again. I have no idea why the law finds this kind of argumentation compelling. "I clearly intentionally deceived, but I stashed some bullshit legalese into a document no one will read so my deception is completely OK."

BrandoElFollito 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Some 20 years ago there was a story about a guy who was opening a bank account. The bank sent the contract, the guy ameneded it with things like "you will give le unlimited credit that I do not need to repay" (if my memory serves me right).

He signed, sent both copies, got his bank signed copy back

Went yo the bank, the bank sued him, he won (the judge told the bank that when you play dirty games you sometimes loose) and they ultimately settled.

lucianbr 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://www.rt.com/business/man-outsmarts-banks-wins-court-2...

I can never find an article that mentions the final outcome.

Mathnerd314 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It is on Wikipedia under T-Bank, this seems the best source that announces the resolution: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905212700/https://www.tinko...

gamblor956 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

...In Russia.

That wouldn't work in the U.S. Changes to material terms in a contract generally informed consent (meaning, that the modifications are actually disclosed to the counterparty before they sign) or specific consent (such as a initializing the sections of the contract where the modifications occur). This is a basic part of the UCC, which all states have adopted in some form.

There are a lot of people on the internet claiming that you can get away with surreptitious material changes to a contract before it is signed. None of them are lawyers.

torginus 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My two cents is that if it didn't, 'I didn't know that was illegal/breach of contract' would be a valid legal defense.

Although intentionally saying things that contradict whats in the contract might be legally objectionable.

crote 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

On the other hand: imagine someone putting "by agreeing to this, you owe us $1,000,000,000 - unless you opt out in writing within 90 days" halfway down the 100-page EULA of some cookie-cutter smartphone app.

It is not at all uncommon for such absurd contract terms to be unenforceable - especially in B2C contracts, although it might even be tricky for B2B clickthrough ones.

The idea being that most contracts are fairly standard, so a lot of people will just skim through them. Putting a landmine in them is obviously in bad faith, so making it enforceable would basically make it impossible to do any kind of business at all.

disillusioned 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

FullStory just tried to pull this with their renewal. We had a mult-year contract that started with a two-page order form, on which the words "renewal" or "cancellation" never once appear. During negotiations, it was never discussed that the plan would renew, or that there was a cancellation window. Instead, buried at the very bottom of the form (which they send via CongaSign, and wasn't clickable or obvious), was a line about their subscription agreement being linked to their terms and conditions page. On THAT page, they mention the plan will auto renew and must be cancelled with 60 days notice.

We cancelled at T-45 or so days before renewal, having determined it wasn't a fit for our client anymore, and they insisted "well, actually, you've renewed anyway!" which, no, we haven't. Absolutely absurd to try to "clickwrap" buried renewal terms in a 20+ page T&C/privacy document rather than as a material point of fact on the actual order form being executed.

Feels like the height of absurdity to try to bully your client into forcing them to use your services against their will when they still gave ample notice that they were cancelling and when there was no material loss to the business, but it's always felt like their revenue team has been unhinged in general: exploding offers, insane terms, super high-pressure sales... part of the reason we left them in the first place.

observationist 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

On the other other hand, they can put whatever they want in there, and because they've forced everything into arbitration with "third party" mediation and carved out their own little niche of the justice system, they'll never actually go to court, they'll just settle and evolve their ToS and contracts and word games accordingly.

graemep 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Not going to work in a lot of countries, again, especially with regard to consumer contracts.

jerf 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nominally, Common Law, the system of law that to a first approximation is used in countries descended from the UK, has a lot of protections of that sort. You can't put "unconscionable" terms in a contract, e.g., it is simply illegal to sell yourself into total slavery in common-law derived systems. All signatories to a contract must consent, must not be under duress, the contract can not be one-sided (this doesn't mean "the contract is 'fair' from a 3rd-party point of view" but "the contract can't result in only one side giving things but the other doesn't"), and a variety of other common sense rules.

In practice, availing yourself of any of these protections is a massively uphill battle. Judges tend to presume that these common law matters are already embedded into the de facto legal system because the people writing the laws already operated under those assumptions while framing the law. Personally, I disagree and think a lot of these protections have eroded away into either nothing, or so little that it might as well be nothing, but you have a 0% chance of drawing me as a judge in your case so that won't help you much if you try.

ryandrake 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wish we lived in more of a "spirit of the law" world than a "letter of the law" world, where everything needs to be spelled out, but we don't. A small minority of people enjoy Rules Lawyering their way through life, insisting on trying to "gotcha" counterparties who are acting in good faith, so as a consequence, we all have to be Rules Lawyers and everything needs to be spelled out.

xboxnolifes 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We live in neither. Many things spelled out are unenforceable. Maybe things not spelled out are implied.

We live in a world where advertising boneless chicken does not actually mean the chicken does not contain bones.

NetMageSCW 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think a “spirit of the law” world would result in judges that already abuse their absurd powers way too much have free rein over any abuse they want to do, and there would be no system for ensuring everyone is treated equally or fairly.

vkou 8 hours ago | parent [-]

The current alternative is the corpos abuse their absurd powers, and there's no system for ensuring everyone is treated equally or fairly.

d3ckard 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, you don’t. It only sounds nice. In practice this enables all kinds of spontaneous prosecution with any possible motive.

WesolyKubeczek 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Theoretically, courts and judges exist precisely to balance the word and the spirit, and find and judge the actual intent. In practice, I'm in awe that good judgments still happen, despite everything.

marcosdumay 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When the contract is purposefully obtuse and hard to understand, that should be a valid legal defense.

When it's huge, falls upon people that can't justify a lawyer, and keeps changing all the time, one shouldn't even need to claim it. It should be automatically invalid.

SoftTalker 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Contract language is obtuse and hard to understand precisely because of previous challenges over meaning. There are stock phrasings and clauses in contracts that have established (by precident) legal meanings. That's why contracts seem to be walls of boilerplate.

If you just wrote them in "plain language" there would be far too much ambiguity and arguing over what was really meant or implied or agreed to.

voxic11 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Copilot is for entertainment purposes only. It can make mistakes, and it may not work as intended. Don’t rely on Copilot for important advice. Use Copilot at your own risk.

Seems pretty clear to me, do you really think people need a lawyer to understand that?

andy81 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The only thing "clear" about that License agreement is it contradicts all their other marketing about Copilot.

So either that document is fraudulent or everyone else at Microsoft is committing fraud daily.

Examples from the first search result: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/microsoft-365-copi...

Support page with ~25 tutorials provided by Microsoft about how to "Create a document with Copilot" or "Create a branded presentation from a file" or "Start a Loop workspace from a Teams meeting".

Do you actually believe that creating branded presentations (from Microsoft's own examples) is something people do for "entertainment purposes"?

NetMageSCW 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Did Microsoft force you to follow the tutorials and use CoPilot for business?

adgjlsfhk1 7 hours ago | parent [-]

By advertising Copilot as capable of doing something they are guaranteeing the product is capable of it.

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
jon-wood 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If Copilot is for entertainment purposes only then why is https://office.com all about how you can use Copilot, and closes with the small print "Copilot Chat in the Microsoft 365 Copilot app is available for Microsoft 365 Enterprise, Academic, SMB, Personal and Family subscribers with a work, education, or personal account."

Why would they include a product for entertainment purposes only in the product they sell to large companies for doing work?

WesolyKubeczek 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Microsoft is pivoting to become an entertainment company, the Copilot being the final form of what Microsoft Bob has always wanted to become.

Sharlin 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, if you make that clear in all of your marketing rather than lying your ass off and then trying the "lol we didn’t really mean it" defense.

marcosdumay 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are 1698 words before that phrase.

Granted that this one document has a surprisingly clear language, but no, it's still not reasonable. Also, it was changed less than 6 months ago.

12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
lazide 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If it’s in a locked cabinet in the downstairs bathroom with the ‘out of order’ sign on the door, guarded by a leopard?

recursive 12 hours ago | parent [-]

A disused lavatory?

lazide 11 hours ago | parent [-]

We can neither confirm nor deny on advice of counsel.

10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
promagnon 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

Veserv 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have frequently proposed a objective legal standard for false advertising that handles that: "Technically, your honor". If somebody says that in court, they lose.

The words they used, as commonly understood by the target audience, were intentionally crafted to be interpreted differently than what they were going to say they meant in court. They spent time, effort, and money, ran focus groups, and carefully selected and curated their words to be incorrectly interpreted by the target audience to reach knowingly false conclusions.

The correct standard should be that they spent time, effort, and money, ran focus groups, and carefully selected and curated their words to be correctly interpreted by the target audience to reach true conclusions. Their statements should only be accidentally incorrect in proportion to the time and effort spent crafting and distributing them.

"Technically, your honor", should be treated as the ethical abomination it is.

protocolture 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I know there's some tort caselaw in Australia towards both parties actual understanding of the contract vs written word. We went over a few of these cases in high school commerce. Its been further enshrined by the ACCC, which tends to take the view that the verbal understanding provided at the point of sale can often supercede terms and conditions.

12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
ThrowawayR2 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Our software developers clearly were negligent, but we stashed some bullshit legalese saying 'No warranty express or implied' into a document no one will read so our bug-infested software is completely OK."

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.