> In fact, a reliable engineer ought to be comfortable working on products people hate, because engineers work for the company, not for users.

I prefer to take pride in my work. This sounds like hiding ones neck to collect a paycheck.

I prefer to have hard discussions about pivoting or making changes so that we can improve the product, or company, for our users. Anything less is simply "not doing the job", or at least making a serious consession, in my opinion.

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lelanthran 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I prefer to have hard discussions about pivoting or making changes so that we can improve the product, or company, for our users.

Right.

The user and the client are two different groups of people. If you want to make things better for the client, then sure, that's rational.

If you want to make things better for the user at the expense of the client, then that's irrational.

If you want a job that lets you serve the users, then get one where the users are also the client.

In most dev jobs, the software users are not the same group of people as the client.

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jnpnj 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Along our career we often make compromises. I don't on something hostile to users but I surely stopped having pride on my work, partly to keep collecting a paycheck. Management, team dynamics.. are all influencing the path your product will take. Politics, economics are all factors in this too, few years ago people could jump ship easily, now a lot less so.

I'm coping through HN Hiring threads to find additional gigs that align with the need to contribute for others with less constraints.

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bayindirh 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Came here to say that.

Saying that "engineers work for the company" is a very reductionist take, taking away personal conscience, judgement and moral compass, leaving only "get in, do work, collect reward, go home" cycle. This what robots do. This is what algorithms do. Humans shall and are much more than that.

When I was the tech lead of a Linux distribution, I fought my teeth to make that thing work for the target audience who will be using it, and developers who wanna work and develop on this thing. It was not volunteer work either. It was my paying, day job.

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ForHackernews 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is why software devs are not professionals. A professional engineer will not sign off a bridge that he knows is liable to collapse. Software devs will build whatever dangerous immoral garbage their boss tells them to, and then rationalize it to themselves.

A professional has an obligation to a code of professional ethics that supercedes loyalty to their employer. Nothing of the sort exists in software.

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Filligree 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A licensed engineer who signs off on a bridge that collapses will not remain an engineer, and may be open to criminal prosecution. Their employer knows that, and therefore doesn’t ask them to make that choice. In the rare cases where they do, the engineer doesn’t end up blacklisted across the industry for saying no.

A software engineer is not so lucky.

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IAmBroom 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You've invented your own, personal definition of the common word "professional", that no one else uses.

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imtringued an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You're mixing up the words engineer and professional.

A professional can still be a mere subordinate who just follows orders.

I don't know why it's so poulpular to conflate the word engineer and developer to the point where simonw decided to drop the most important word "software" and started calling AI assisted software development "agentic engineering" which is the most absurd oxymoron you can come up with.

The person prompting for code is delegating the majority of decision making to the AI. This is the antithesis of engineering. Hence the operator cannot be the "engineer", at best the AI can be the "engineer", if it is smart enough.

The word engineering implies a task with trade offs, guarantees and expectations about the finished product. The vast majority of software isn't important enough to even know what the specifications are or what features it should have ahead of time. You throw something at the wall and see what sticks. "Agentic engineering" just accelerates the process of throwing things onto the market.

Then there is the fact that "engineering" has become a euphemism for software and nothing else. Anything physical is excluded from the start.

Finally "agentic engineering" implies that you're engineering the agent, but you're not doing that either. You're just a user who set up a sandbox and is letting the AI loose.

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ForHackernews 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

Engineers are only one type of professional: doctors, lawyers and accountants are also professionals who have obligations to their profession before their obligation to their employer.

The title 'software developer' is correct. We are not engineers and we are not professionals. Pretending otherwise is a grasp for unearned status.

	▲	bayindirh 14 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		I believe software developers don't have any kind of paperwork to be considered professionals. Professionalism is a kind of attitude to begin with and can be tied to your conscience and moral compass. Any paperwork certifying this is just a label and external anchor. In essence, it starts from within.

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montag 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a fatalistic attitude. Some kind of is/ought fallacy. This is why we need precepts like "Focus on the user and all else will follow."

	▲	iugtmkbdfil834 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		But... what if the users are mere vessels and true users are actually the people paying for it. I am saying it half-jokingly having watched big short. I dunno man. I know by now I have a line, but I know that line differs from person to person. To your point, some of this stuff is loosely defined its no small wonder management is able to play word games.

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poszlem 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."