| ▲ | grujicd 6 hours ago |
| This "make Windows better" push is far more political than technological. It's a fight with other divisions about using Windows as a marketing and sales channel for other products and services. It has to be a decision from the very top. I hope they realize that Windows is in significant danger, the majority market share for Desktop OS is not guaranteed anymore. It's not just 10% of revenue, it's a foundation for how enterprises ended up on Azure and are bringing big money. I'm still a Windows power user, MacBook is a wonderful piece of hardware and I'm typing this on one, but I'm not nearly as productive as on multimonitor PC with TotalCommander and Visual Studio where I use all the shortcuts subconsciously. |
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| ▲ | Rapzid 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| As someone with a sizeable background in Linux system engineering.. I prefer Windows to MacOS. It's IMHO a better desktop now with the edge snap tile layout and etc. Excellent device compatibility. And I get my linux environment needs satisfied via WSL2 these days. But damn if they don't get in their own way. I have my own Pro licenses, and even with Pro turning off ads and features is text book whack-a-mole: * Frequent "Let's finish setting up your PC" after updates * Killing OneDrive is a like night of the living dead * Edge popping up "ads" asking you if you want to pin apps when it closes(a lot of windows apps wrap edge, like streaming apps, and show this too on close!) * Scary Power Automate crap getting injected on updates(haven't seen this in a while) * Internet search results in the "Home" search * Random popups and product recommendations * Registry disabled "features" randomly resurrecting after Windows update Holy. Hell. Edit: I recall now; Windows was installing a power automate extension into Chrome during Windows Update un-prompted last year. Caused a minor panic. |
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| ▲ | ryandrake 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This might be obvious, but all of those things have a single common denominator: Microsoft, over you, getting to decide what your computer is doing. This is the biggest generalized danger in computing today: That OS (and device) manufacturers have gotten it in their heads that it's OK for them to have a strong say in what your computer runs. User doesn't want X, Y, or Z running on his computer? TOUGH. We are going to run it and make it really hard or impossible for user to turn it off. As a user, I no longer feel like I'm driving the car--I'm just a passenger. "Where do you want to go today?" has turned into "You're going here today, whether you want to or not!" | | |
| ▲ | rlpb 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > This might be obvious, but all of those things have a single common denominator: Microsoft, over you, getting to decide what your computer is doing. Sure, but Microsoft have to strike a balance, too. If they push too hard in this direction, they'll lose their users to Macs on one side (probably the majority) and Linux on the other (a minority in number, but perhaps significant in expertise and clout). Once an exodus begins, it's much harder to stop. So where we are in that balance, and the state of user mindshare migration, is still interesting to discuss. | |
| ▲ | ctoth an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | All true, and yet: Windows accessibility actually works. I use a screen reader daily. Linux a11y is complete dogshit — AT-SPI2 is unreliable, Orca is barely maintained, Wayland broke what little existed. I need something that actually works. When Linux goes off and decides it'll rewrite its working desktop stack and it's still, ten years later, not useable? ADHD-Driven development might be fine if you can see your system. When you can't, being at the whims of some teenager chasing the new shiny is just frustrating. | |
| ▲ | hn_acc1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's more: you want to go to location A? Sure, but we're going to make a quick stop at locations B, C and D first, and the only available car is a known-to-be-dangerous self-driving robotaxi with no steering wheel or pedals. | | |
| ▲ | m_mueller an hour ago | parent [-] | | ... which in the middle of the route decides to instead drive onto a container ship and bring you to a robotic island? ah no wait, that's the announced next update. |
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| ▲ | kipchak 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've had good luck with the winutil tool, which is wrapper for a bunch of powershell commands and registry edits in a .ps1 to remove bloat. After using it on a fresh install I can't recall the last time I've had any of the mentioned issues. If you're (understandably) concerned about the security implications most of the changes can be done manually going off the docs. https://github.com/christitustech/winutil | | |
| ▲ | anthk 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Bloat will come back on every update. It's futile. | | |
| ▲ | ewoodrich 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’ve used this Powershell script on every Windows 11 machine in the last four years (5+ devices) and have never needed to re-run it after an update. It’s the first thing I do on a fresh install, and with my selections I see fewer ads (0, more or less) than I do on my MacBook for iCloud products so I’d hardly say it’s “futile” in actual use and only takes like 5 minutes to run once. I always hear people say nothing sticks after an update but have literally only encountered that with Microsoft Edge and the default search engine. Not any of the Windows features disabled or configured by the script. Not sure if it’s just outdated or a meme being repeated by non-Windows users but in any case it is not at all what I’ve experienced exclusively running debloated Windows 11 installs for years. https://github.com/raphire/win11debloat | |
| ▲ | kipchak 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not sure if I'm lucky or it's because I have feature releases deferred or if the tool ripped enough things out but this hasn't been my experience so far. If it does you could save off the changes as a JSON template and re-apply after updates, or automatically with task scheduler. | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Use LTSC and you get 10 year support period, so you can update whenever it's convenient for you. |
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| ▲ | Miraste 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I also think Windows' native window tiling is one of its best features, but there's a fantastic program called Swish that implements tiling for MacOS in a very native-feeling way. It supports keyboard shortcuts, but it's built around really elegant touchpad gestures. Highly recommend if that's all that's keeping you on Windows. The other native Windows feature I really like is the clipboard manager, and I don't have a great replacement for that yet. I'm kind of shocked Apple hasn't built one. If anyone has a recommendation that feels native instead of like a ported Linux widget, please share. | | |
| ▲ | chuckadams 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They mentioned Visual Studio, as in full-fat VS, not VS Code. That's only ever going to run on Windows. | | |
| ▲ | Miraste 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It actually did run on MacOS until recently. Personally I like Rider over Studio, but yes, if that's a hard requirement they are stuck. | | |
| ▲ | grujicd 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, it was not real Visual Studio on MacOS, it was rebranded Xamarin IDE. |
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| ▲ | grujicd 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm using Raycast on Mac, it has a bunch of stuff included but I use it only for its Clipboard History extension. | |
| ▲ | sylens 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Apple did introduce one this past fall as part of Spotlight |
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| ▲ | kevin_thibedeau 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The only tolerable Windows 11 experience is a corporate PC with Active Directory login. | | |
| ▲ | actionfromafar 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | And an IT department vetting updates before they go out. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Was it the 8 to 10 upgrade that MS slipped into Windows Update or a different one? Whichever it was, the IT department where I was at the time had apparently left Windows Update untouched and it wreaked havok. | |
| ▲ | j16sdiz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | the same IT department that got blamed not allowed user changing wallpaper or installing crowstrike |
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| ▲ | pityJuke an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ditto. I've found it pretty tolerable once I've used "ShutUp10!" to disable the annoying stuff. I've used harder tools than it, but I've then found it breaks useful stuff (like the Xbox Gaming stuff, which some MSFT games use). | |
| ▲ | guilamu 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Use LTSC. It'll fix all the issues you are mentioning here. | | |
| ▲ | GuestFAUniverse an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | AFAIK Office isn't supported on LTSC fka. LTSB. Installed LTSB for a conservative superior. He just wanted to work, without changes. I supported that happily. Until we had to start using Office 365. Or did they revert that restriction? | |
| ▲ | pomian 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Second ltsc -look into it once you try you will never go back.
Available from various resellers nowadays. It is, what windows should be sold as. | |
| ▲ | Krssst 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | LTSC cannot be bought as a regular customer unfortunately. Legally, regular customers are only allowed to use the enshittified version. |
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| ▲ | varispeed 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Don't forget the search that doesn't work. You have app "X" installed? You type X and it doesn't find it, but gives you irrelevant results about X. | | |
| ▲ | Someone1234 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Windows' search has been broken for multiple generations now. Some people inside Microsoft seemingly even know, that's why the PowerToys team created "PowerToys Run." A Windows Search that actually basically functions correctly. People act like it sudden was broken in Windows 11 when in reality it never worked correctly in 7, 8, 8.1, or 10 either. Instead of fixing it, they've only made it worse. It seems like nobody in Microsoft works on core stuff anymore. | | |
| ▲ | branko_d an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If memory serves, Windows 2000 was the last version where search worked reliably. It was a simple linear search through files which could take a while on larger folders, but was reliable and predictable since it did not rely on a background indexing service which seems to get stale or just plain wrong most of the time. If I search for “foo”, I’d like to get all files containing “foo” please, without a shadow of a doubt that some files were skipped, including those that I have recently created. I still can’t get that as of Windows 11! | |
| ▲ | kdheiwns 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, I've never experienced Windows search ever working. Even on XP, it couldn't find commonly opened folders or programs for me. It always felt like some sort of joke feature just meant to fool me into wasting time. | |
| ▲ | Krssst 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | As far as I remember it was working well in 7 and 8 (deterministic and shows programs that you expect it to show). From 10 it started behaving erratically (same time it got binged but maybe unrelated). | | |
| ▲ | beart 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It had problems in 8. I would frequently type my search term, see it was the number one result. I would then attempt to arrow or tab down and hit enter to launch that result. Between arrowing down and hitting enter, the result list would update/reorder and suddenly I'm launching some unknown program. Happened all the time. |
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| ▲ | pooploop64 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's weird how it does seem to do something even though it doesn't do anything. You can see the search indexer running and it's pulling a varying amount of power towards some kind of goal but nobody seems to know what it is. Does it build an index that always corrupts? Is it in a loop of crashing and restarting itself? And it's been like this my whole life practically.
It really shows how anything can be normalized if it goes on long enough. | |
| ▲ | Rapzid 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | At one point (last year?) internet search results would load in first so quickly typing and pressing "enter" from muscle memory would often result in opening some internet page instead of the app you wanted.. Then also in the past year or two the internet search results were lagging the entire search UI causing type jank and stutters. I disabled internet results in the registry but a recent update seems to have caused that setting to no longer apply ;( | | |
| ▲ | skeeter2020 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >> would often result in opening some internet page instead of the app you wanted. and even worse, in Edge! |
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| ▲ | badpun 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | One of the first things to do on a fresh install is to disable the Web search results in Start menu search. There's a setting in the registry to do it. | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Same problem on MacOS. | |
| ▲ | Krasnol an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | ...where we get to one of the best things about Windows: there is a free (and probably open source) tool for everything: https://www.voidtools.com/ |
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| ▲ | grujicd 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Recently I'm finding MSN home opened in Chrome over night. Aparently it's connected to some "active probing" feature, and I do have scheduled nightly restarts in the home router. But come on... No one could convince me it's not intended to inflate MSN numbers. | |
| ▲ | Melatonic 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Get Windows LTSC instead and run Firefox ! Most problems solved. | | |
| ▲ | throw384848t 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | is not mozilla advertising company, that heavilly pushes AI? How is their spying any different from microsoft? |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >I hope they realize that Windows is in significant danger, the majority market share for Desktop OS is not guaranteed anymore. i agree with most of what you said, but this is borderline fantasy. the majority of home market share is not guaranteed, sure. with how good gaming is on non-windows machines now, there isnt much for a home user to get locked-in with (except games that require windows-only malware i.e. anticheat) but government, institution (hospitals, universities, etc.) and large non-tech enterprise? that will be windows for at least 20 more years even if they started to change everything now (which they arent). and the number of machines in those places absolutely dwarfs the number of home installs. |
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| ▲ | sidkshatriya 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Decline often happens slowly, gradually and then suddenly. Could anybody imagine Intel where it is now ? This could happen to Microsoft and is probably already happening as we speak. | | |
| ▲ | tomwheeler an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | And I'd imagine that this decline accelerates as _developers_ begin migrating to other platforms, since the applications they created are what made that platform appealing to non-developers. That's why Steve Ballmer was jumping up and down, shouting, in a sweaty fervor. Say what you want about pre-Nadella Microsoft, but they definitely recognized the importance of having lots of developers writing software for Windows. And they treated developers like VIPs. | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >gradually and then suddenly. governments, institutions, and large enterprises (like, thousands of people) do not have the power to do anything "suddenly". they have contracts, and cash flow concerns. you cannot suddenly replaces tens to hundreds of thousands of machines. 20-50 years down the road? maybe! they (microsoft) surely arent doing themselves many favors. but they are certainly not in "significant danger" today. | | |
| ▲ | jerf 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Suddenly" in this case does not mean tomorrow. It means that, today, a lot of enterprises begin pondering the question, and then about a year from now, they start seriously studying and prototyping it, and then "suddenly" in 2029 Microsoft starts seeing a deluge of defections. It means a whole bunch of peopling finishing the conversion all at once, relatively speaking, even if that "all at once" is 3-4 years away. To put it another way, the thresholds where people get annoyed enough to quit are highly correlated to each other. If individuals on HN are posting "I don't want to switch, I've been working this way for decades now, but Windows has crossed the line for me, I've switched to Linux, and it was easier than I thought it would be", then corporations and governments are having very similar deliberations internally. This is probably a more accurate model for how "influencers" seem to work than the idea that some crazy guy in your organization falls in love with Product X and evangelizes it internally. I'm sure that happens and is a real force, but this correlation-of-experience effect is probably bigger on the whole. If Product X was good enough to make an evangelist internally, or more germane to this conversation, to make some a mortal enemy of it internally, it's usually because it was a good enough or bad enough product to be able to do that in the first place, and eventually everyone will figure it out in exactly the same way, just later. 20 years is way too large a minimum estimate. If Microsoft responds correctly that might be good, but if they just decide to rest on their laurels and extract whatever value they can out of Windows while they can, Windows would never last 20 years of that. Even the slowest organizations can move faster than that. After all, to cut Microsoft's revenues off at the knees, they don't need to remove every last Windows 2000 server in their backoffice they can't upgrade, they need to cut out just the majority of desktop licenses. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > lot of enterprises begin pondering the question, and then about a year from now, they start seriously studying and prototyping it Not sure about big enterprises, but I already see this happening in the mid-size, non tech company market. I'm an IT manager and has been a sysadmin/ops for my entire career, and the past ~4 years I've been seeing a pretty consistent shift toward companies my company does business with deploying more and more macs. Windows is still dominant in my industry, but the cracks in the wall are widening. It's gotten to the point that I'm genuinely surprised now when I see Windows when someone screen shares. Apple silicon is just too good and the generations coming into the workforce now don't have a "default" windows familiarity that we used to have. They're coming in needing to be trained on how to use a PC in general, windows or not, having used nothing but chromebooks and mobile OSes. Now, Office OTOH is more entrenched than windows. Even the macshops I interact with are all on M365. Macs are managed with Intune, users & SSO with Entra, Defender for EDR, and of course the office apps. And that's why Microsoft probably isn't as afraid as it seems when it comes to Windows. Even without Windows lock-in, there is very real M365 lockin that is far more entrenched than the endpoint OS. | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >20 years is way too large a minimum estimate. i disagree. unless intuit is also rewriting quickbooks, dassault systèmes is rewriting solidworks, every bank is rewriting their custom windows-only software, every government branch is rewriting their custom windows-only software, etc. and every company is willing to retrain 95% of their employees on a new operating system, have increased support requirements for a few years at least, etc. not even touching the capital required for such a transition that in many cases has questionable benefits (from a business perspective). time will tell! i have first-hand experience with how fast banks move, so i will stick by my 20 year minimum. happy to see otherwise, though. in any case. what i replied to was a claim that windows is in "significant danger" today. it is not. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > unless intuit is also rewriting quickbooks They already have. You can't buy QuickBooks for desktop anymore unless you want Enterprise, the expensive $4k+/year subscription. They dumped the Pro/Pro Plus and moved all those users to QuickBooks online. And now they've launched Intuit Enterprise Suite in an effort to move the QBE customers into Online. The writing is on the wall there, desktop is going away. It's also happening in more specialized areas too. I work in waste management/recycling, and this industry was traditionally windows heavy with thick clients on desktops. Even the truck scale software is moving to web interfaces, as are the dispatching and asset management. OS increasingly doesn't matter for most knowledge work. Yeah, there are going to be industries that will probably never move, certainly not within a 20 year timeline, but there are a ton that are moving or have moved entirely to SaaS and web apps. | |
| ▲ | breve 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > i disagree. unless intuit is also rewriting quickbooks, dassault systèmes is rewriting solidworks, every bank is rewriting their custom windows-only software, every government branch is rewriting their custom windows-only software Up front they won't need to do a full rewrite. They'll only need to make it work well enough under Wine. At a source level, tools like Avalonia's xpf make porting WPF apps to other platforms easier: https://avaloniaui.net/xpf | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | of the stupid enterprise-y software like quickbooks, solidworks and other proprietary stuff that i have used, they barely work well enough under native windows. not to mention, even sticking them in a windows VM voids any support contracts. |
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| ▲ | gundmc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In 20 years I expect basically all of these to move to web-based interfaces and away from thick clients. You're already seeing graphics heavy use cases like CAD do this (Onshape has been hugely popular and is cloud native on Linux). Even behemoths like SAP are increasingly web enabled through fiori. | | | |
| ▲ | Junk_Collector 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's an interesting case to me. The company I work for has been shipping systems on windows since the 90's despite pretty consistent requests from customers to ship hardware on Linux. 2 years ago we started creating our own Linux distribution and this year started shipping products on it. We still ship a lot of stuff on Windows 11, but that market share is starting to shift now. 10 years from now I could see us completely moved to our Linux distro. Now, what's actually interesting is that it wasn't customer requests or efficient capital allocation that drove this. Microsoft effectively forced us to do this against our will by a combination discontinued products and handling of Windows 11 and now that we've spent the capital we won't be going back. | | |
| ▲ | grujicd 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can't abandon Windows because of software X, Y, Z. Over the years vendors move to multiplatform as more and more customers ask for it. These changes are slow but steady. And one day you find out that the last "must have" software is not limited to Windows anymore. That's when the dam breaks. |
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| ▲ | danaris 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It doesn't take all the specialized Windows-only line-of-business software being rewritten to have massive defections to Linux happen. The market you're describing is real, and very significant—but I don't think it's even a majority of Windows users. If so, it's a small one. And imagine what even 30-40% of all Windows sales disappearing over the course of 2-3 years would do to Microsoft. To Windows as a platform. Then imagine what would happen if it was 50-70%. The former, I would describe as "a disaster". The latter, I would describe as "apocalyptic". (Y'know. For Microsoft as a company. Not in general.) |
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| ▲ | Orygin 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Still, a lot of those woke up from a profound sleep about digital sovereignty and are now contemplating leaving the American software ecosystem. It won't be sudden, until it is | |
| ▲ | thesuitonym an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And how many times this year have you seen a headline with some European country's government starting to migrate away from Microsoft? | | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | a couple? and as far as i know, none of them have completed the transition. it is great that some are starting, seriously. but windows is not in significant danger as of today. |
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| ▲ | jon-wood 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can't suddenly replace them, but in a lot of cases you can find that over an extended period more and more people choose the MacBook option from IT rather than the Windows one. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | most people are not willing to learn an entire new operating system for no reason, though. this might happen in tech-based companies, sure, but banks? accounting firms? ive never seen them offer macbooks. this is also ignoring all of the critical software that is windows-only (e.g. quickbooks, solidworks, bespoke programs in banks and government). point is: microsoft is not in "significant danger" today. | | |
| ▲ | criddell 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My daughter works at a bank in Canada and she was issued a Macbook. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai an hour ago | parent [-] | | surprising! what i know of canadian banks is admittedly little, so they might be moving faster than the banks i am familiar with. may i ask what department? do you know if it is managed by intune? | | |
| ▲ | criddell an hour ago | parent [-] | | I don't know much. She isn't allowed to talk about any operational details. She just started there a few weeks ago. And Canadian banks aren't known for moving fast. They are pretty conservative (at least the big chartered banks are). |
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| ▲ | olyjohn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most people dont even use the operating system. They look for the apps menu, then click what they want to run. Most people can switch between OSes easier than you think because there really isn't that much difference in how they work on the surface. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | users are one component, but you are still ignoring/forgetting the rest. user management, file management, security, windows-specific software, auditing requirements, required capital investment, lack of competent linux sysadmins compared to windows sysadmins, and so on. |
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| ▲ | jon-wood 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | An increasing number of people are coming into the workplace never having used a Windows machine, or only occasionally having done so when it was absolutely necessary. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | >An increasing number of people are coming into the workplace never having used a Windows machine i would love to see your numbers for this. what does "increasing percentage" mean? 1% -> 2%? 10% -> 20%? i teach at a college level, in tech, and would estimate ~5% of incoming students have any experience with something other than windows on a pc, at best. outside of tech, i would estimate ~2%. |
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| ▲ | homarp 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | and then something like COVID happens and they change fast. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | expanding your vpn to support more employees working from home is much easier than replacing hundreds of thousands of machines, all of the windows-only software that runs on those machines, training all of your employees on a new operating system, cancelling all of your existing contracts... you get the point. | | |
| ▲ | homarp 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | well, it happened with Teams meetings replacing fancy CISCO equipments. It happened with all the vpn+shared drives buried to just use SPO. different experience,I guess. Did your employees got trained? or just sent the link to 3 'online trainings'? Managers manage to switch to Mac seamlessly. I am sure the rest will follow with cheaper macs now available. And now, with 'office on the web', you can use basic office everywhere. (even on Debian) | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >And now, with 'office on the web', you can use basic office everywhere. (even on Debian) office is a tiny, almost negligible, piece of the puzzle. quickbooks, solidworks and other cad software, bespoke software, security software, user management, permissions management (replacing active directory), contractual obligations, the millions of dollars required in implementation, the millions more dollars required for increased user support, and so on... but, again, just to reiterate: i am disputing that windows is in "significant danger" today. |
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| ▲ | phendrenad2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wait, I'm confused, are you calling moving from Windows to Linux a "decline"? Because I can agree with that ;) | | |
| ▲ | danaris 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Decline" in people's trust in a particular platform, in this case. Or the decline of the platform or company itself. |
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| ▲ | kuerbel 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Large parts of one german state switched to open source. First they laughed at them and now they are envious. The switch to Linux is happening this year. Until the end of the year they want all workers on Linux instead of Windows. It is possible, and fast if you want it. | | |
| ▲ | lelanthran 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Large parts of one german state switched to open source. Haven't they been doing this every 5 - 8 years since 2004? | | |
| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 an hour ago | parent [-] | | there's a lot of parts of Germany. the original versions were town at a time. now it's whole regions. |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | kudos to them! out of curiosity, "large parts" of "one german state" is how many machines roughly? i am suspecting that it is probably nowhere near enough to put windows in "significant danger". however, i am rooting for their success and hope that they thoroughly document (and publish) the process. i have never seen a transition like that go smoothly, let alone when it is in government. | | |
| ▲ | kuerbel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | https://www.heise.de/en/news/Goodbye-Microsoft-Schleswig-Hol... That was the situation at the end of December. Note that projects like these often fail not for technical reasons, not even cost, but political pressure from other parties, pressure from people that worked for ages in the administration and, well, have some problems to adjust to new software. There is also a push from the German state to switch to open source or at least European solutions. There is the Deutschland-Stack, for which the IT planning council made open source mandatory: https://www.heise.de/en/news/Deutschland-Stack-IT-Planning-C... And so on. At my day job more and more customers are reconsidering cloud adoption, especially M365 and such. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | thanks for the link! it is unfortunate that they do not provide numbers, just percentages. i would love to know exactly (or roughly) how many machines "80%" is. and the "80%" seems slightly misleading, because it is 80%, not including the tax administration. i have no idea what overall % of machines are inside or outside of the tax administration. it also appears like this is mostly about software like office, rather than operating systems? >"outside the tax administration, almost 80 percent of workplaces in the state administration have already been switched to the open-source office software LibreOffice." switching away from office is significantly more realistic than migrating away from windows altogether, and something that every business can and should absolutely consider doing soon. anyways, seriously, good for them. as i mentioned elsewhere, i hope that they are thoroughly documenting their experiences and are willing to share them after completion. | | |
| ▲ | kuerbel 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Migrating to linux will be started this year. I think a big step is also replacing sharepoint with Nextcloud. Iirc they have 30k workstations. |
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| ▲ | willy_k 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This alone obviously doesn’t put Windows in danger, but if it does go over well then it’ll mark a turning point; A large non-techy institution getting away from Microsoft’s castle and being better off for it would signal to the world that it’s not only doable, but could even be worth it. It’ll take a while, but this could be the start of the end for Windows. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >This alone obviously doesn’t put Windows in danger, so, the quote i specifically replied to said that today windows is in "significant danger", and i said it isnt. we seem to be in agreement. as for what the future holds, i think it will be much slower than other people. but maybe i am wrong! which would be fine with me. but, today, windows is not in "significant danger". | | |
| ▲ | grujicd 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | That "significant danger" was a bit of dramatization on my part. I don't expect anything to significantly change in the short term. I was more referring to long-term tidal-like change, which would be very hard to stop once momentum builds up. |
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| ▲ | pydry 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This exact same thing (literally another german state i think) almost happened about 20 years ago and Microsoft freaked the fuck out. Thats where all the TCO nonsense came from - just one german state trying to de-microsoft. I think Microsoft won, too. I think theyre terrified of positive examples. Especially ones with FAR lower TCO and lower geopolitical risks. |
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| ▲ | mrweasel an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The home market is interesting, because they do need to address that as well. I'm not sure how many people are switching to macs, and even fewer are switching to Linux, That's not Microsofts problem, not on the large scale. If you have a PC at home right now, and you're not technically inclined, and Windows is driving you nuts, you're just not getting a new PC again. More and more people are managing without PCs at home, using their phone or a tablet. To many of us, the idea of your phone as your primary computing device is complete bonkers, but more and more people are choosing that option. Microsoft isn't really giving them a reason to stay, because every time they fired up their laptop Windows updates starts rolling in, taking forever, the UI keeps bugging them about things they don't care about and now there's ads in the start menu. So will Windows attempts to boot, the average person already did the thing they needed to do on their phone. Windows Home Edition, or whatever it's call now, isn't competing with Linux and Mac, it's competing with Android and iOS, and it's losing. | | |
| ▲ | pmontra 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's correct. Furthermore
if RAM prices keep going up and staying up, many people won't buy a new PC and they will switch everything on their phones. So the current market could be the undoing of Windows. |
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| ▲ | baal80spam 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree with this. At this point, Windows is like COBOL. | |
| ▲ | TheDong 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > with how good gaming is on non-windows machines now, there isn't much for a home user to get locked-in with The options for the average user are not linux or windows, but only macOS or Windows. Gaming is abysmal on macOS on any of the current hardware. That said, I agree with you that there's less-and-less gaming lock-in on windows, but that's because the majority of gamers are gaming on iOS and android. | | |
| ▲ | Levitz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >That said, I agree with you that there's less-and-less gaming lock-in on windows, but that's because the majority of gamers are gaming on iOS and android. I don't think you are aware of how much the landscape has changed regarding gaming and Linux. | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The options for the average user are not linux or windows, but only macOS or Windows. i dont think this is true. steam surveys also do not agree: linux gamers are about 2x the number of OSX | | |
| ▲ | TheDong 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | 2% (linux, really 1% steamOS and 1% other linux) and 1% (macOS) makes it sound much less impressive than "2x". The options for an average user, who does not use steam and is not in the steam hw survey, are just macOS and windows. The options for a serious gamer who uses steam (a tiny fraction of PC users) is clearly just Windows or SteamOS at this point, or more likely Windows + a steam deck (which is half of the 2% there, SteamOS). Or just gaming on iOS / android, like most gamers do these days. The steam hw survey isn't really representative of gamers since the vast majority of them game on consoles and phones. |
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| ▲ | j16sdiz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | ios gamer and pc gamer are different kind of gamers |
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| ▲ | oliwarner 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > far more political than technological I don't know. A company worth trillions of dollars does a pretty fine job of making Windows incrementally worse in new and interesting ways, each release. There's some truth; the bloated company structure has contributed to these unforced errors, but just at an engineering level, people are releasing this tripe without the skill or training or backbone to know what is bad, and push back on toxic management decisions. Engineers collaborating with oppressive management is a technical failure. Google is riddled with the same problem. I'm sure all the FAANG-a-likes do. Paying billions in salaries to sycophant devs. They have the market share to keep failing upwards. They don't deserve it. |
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| ▲ | marssaxman 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Who says the engineers have any leverage they can push with? I sure didn't, when I worked there. | | |
| ▲ | oliwarner 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not listening to engineers is a serious engineering problem that's played out in construction, automotive and software engineering dozens of times over. The penalty for Microsoft ignoring their devs might just be a slow decline into irrelevance, not a bridge collapsing, or an autonomous vehicle hitting the lane barrier because the boss refuses to use LiDAR, but it's all bad management causing an engineering problem. | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Not listening to engineers is a serious engineering problem. No, that's the very archetype of a political problem. It is a political problem that impacts the engineering output, yes, but still a political problem. |
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| ▲ | torginus 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The weird thing about this is old Microsoft understood that ordinary users are not cash cows, companies are. Microsoft built its empire because of SMB and Active Directory, and other enterprise features, where actually these things are important. Ironically orgs hate MS Accounts just as much, as they have to give up a degree of autonomy, control and security compared to how Windows used to be. |
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| ▲ | drewda 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| FWIW I've been on a OS X for many years now, but I still miss keyboard shortcuts in Windows. So much more consistent across the operating system and applications... |
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| ▲ | sidkshatriya 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've used macOS for years and still don't understand their windows minimize/restore logic. I'm always hunting for my minimized window. Yes, the fault probably lies with me. OTOH the Windows UI is far better well designed and intuitive. But yeah... I'd rather fumble around in macOS: Windows is always trying to upsell a service that I don't need. If I say no it will helpfully keep reminding me (my answer is never going to change). I have 32GB ram and a recent processor being fed tons of wattage -- it feels so bog slow. Windows needs to fix itself fast. | | |
| ▲ | weaksauce 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | reading all these comments about windows having better shortcuts and window management features makes me feel like i'm taking crazy pills. windows for me was hands down the worst experience in ux. the shortcuts in macos are so well thought out and consistent. now i'm using kde in linux land and it's the best and most customizable experience. I can't imagine going back to windows ever and would be missing a lot from linux if i went back to macos(though it would be fine). getting macos keybinding in linux land is a game changer to me: https://github.com/RedBearAK/toshy and this just makes me feel at home. | | |
| ▲ | fodkodrasz 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I give you a well thought out macos shortcut for example. Ok, it is for a niche feature people rarely use... Screenshots, put straight to the clipboard. On windows you have 2 options, bot pretty unintuitive: 1. You can either press PrintScreen button... (OK boomer, who uses a full size keyboard? My RGB clicky-keys 57% keyboard doesn't even have backspace, return, escape or delete, I don't even know when I saw a keyboard with Printscreen. My Neofetch-fork does save the screen, and otherwise no need for screenshots...) 2. Or you may press Win+Shift+S. Ok it is hard to memorize, how does S even relate to Screenshot? Meanwhile on the intuitive MacOs to do this you only have to press Command+Option+Shift+4. So intuitive and easy!!! Also way easier to press, just try it! Only 4 keys to press at the same time, in a very convenient layout, way better than that illogical windows shortcut. Sarcasm aside: It is clear why Microsoft is well known for the fact that in the 1990s they put a lot of effort to usability research, and why Apple is famous about Steve Jobs being the BDFL, and things had to fit his personal taste. |
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| ▲ | 3form 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Overall it does sound like KDE is possibly the experience that you desire - did you try it before? | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You want to look into HyperSwitch and SizeUp. These two solve pretty much all headaches relating to window management on macOS. | |
| ▲ | kmeisthax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | macOS does not and never has had a good strategy for handling minimizing windows. Keep in mind that prior to Mac OS X, you couldn't minimize windows at all, you could only roll them up. When OS X added the dock, they made minimized windows go there. Except, the Dock is an icon grid, so there's no way to see window titles, and the windows themselves are so small that it is difficult to identify them at a glance. Making things worse, the Dock is also a place you put app icons, so now you have an icon to show all your non-minimized app icons, right next to all your minimized window icons. Meanwhile, Windows had minimize since version 2[0], except for whatever reason windows minimized to desktop icons, and there was no desktop folder. They'd known they'd invented a worse version of Mac OS, and in Windows 95 they made sure that there was not only a real desktop, but also a list of all open windows. This design was so successful that the only major tweak that stuck was merging the taskbar and Quick Launch[1] into something that superficially resembles the OSX dock, but is just plain better[2] because clicking an app icon actually shows you all the open windows. [0] I don't have a Windows 1 install to check with. [1] Strictly speaking you could put anything in Quick Launch, but only apps go in the Win7 taskbar [2] Oldschool NeXT users will point out that in NeXTSTEP, minimized windows had an actual title on them, and the app icon instead of a screenshot of the window at tiny scale. |
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| ▲ | kstrauser 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This may be the first time that sentiment's ever been expressed. | | |
| ▲ | malfist 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why do you say that? A lot of shortcuts are shared between windows and linux and fairly consistent across applications. Mac is the one that takes a decided "we're different" approach to shortcuts. I.e., Alt+L for address bar instead of Alt+D, Command swapping with Control, Q instead of W for closing tabs, Command+Control+Q for locking a computer instead of Super+L, etc | | |
| ▲ | kstrauser 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They didn't mention cross-OS shortcuts, though. I interpreted "across the operating systems" as meaning "across the various versions of Windows". Yes, Windows is more consistent with their own common shortcuts. But Macs have exceedingly consistent shortcuts across Mac applications, compared to my experience with Windows and especially Linux. I might also point out that Mac had keyboard shortcuts before Windows existed, so it's not really fair to describe them as the "different" one when MS chose their own, different shortcuts for Windows. | | |
| ▲ | larusso 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Apple also invented their own key “Apple” now “CMD” for operation like copy / paste to explicitly not have the issue to overload the already know escape sequences. Windows being on a system without a normalized keyboard had to reuse keys that are common to keyboards used back then. Vertical integration played into apples cards even back then. | | |
| ▲ | chuckadams 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The location of the command key is also a lot more comfortable. Thumb vs pinky. | |
| ▲ | hparadiz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I setup my Linux system to use it because it's more consistent for copy pasting in a terminal. |
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| ▲ | pdpi an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Many of those shortcuts already existed in macOS before they were added in Windows. Inversely, a lot of desktop Linux stuff was designed specifically to mimic the Windows behaviour. So, really, it's Microsoft that decided "we're different". Also, as somebody who sort of lives in the terminal, the lack of the Command/Ctrl distinction is one of the things that really bothers me about Windows. In default GUI applications, application shortcuts use Command, and Ctrl is used almost exclusively for headline-style shortcuts (ctrl-k for kill line, ctrl-a for home, ctrl-e for end, etc). Ctrl-a Ctrl-shift-e is kind of baked into my brain as "select whole line". | |
| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The big one for me on Mac was refreshing a web page being CMD+R rather than F5. Not to mention the muscle memory for pressing CTRL in the corner of the keyboard rather than CMD where Alt is. Though I will say that having "Copy" (cmd-c) being different from ^C (ctrl-c) was kind of nice. Though Terminal has done a nice thing of making it so if you highlight text, Ctrl-C copies the first time you press it, and sends ^C the second time. | | |
| ▲ | kstrauser 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Conversely, when I use a PC, I have to stop and wonder why alt-R doesn't reload the web page like it's supposed to, and alt-C doesn't copy, and I have to stretch my pinky all the way over to use that shortcut. And what's the mnemonic for "F5 means reload"? Which is to say that neither Windows nor Mac shortcuts are inherently better. It's just what we're used to. IME, the main difference is that once you learn the Mac shortcuts in a handful of apps, they'll pretty much work on the other apps you encounter, too. | | |
| ▲ | 3form 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Ctrl-R reloads the page in every browser that I have used, so perhaps that's what you're looking for. | |
| ▲ | sunshowers 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A big issue with the macOS style I'd that there isn't a modifier key free for the user to build their own shortcuts around. The Win/Super key is a very good place to hang custom shortcuts off of on Windows and Linux. | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | zarzavat 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The big one for me on Mac was refreshing a web page being CMD+R rather than F5. It's not like you can't change it. System Settings > Keyboard Shortcuts > App Shortcuts > add your browser > remap the Reload menu item to F5 Along with Karabiner you can pretty much make Mac OS work however you want it to when it comes to keyboard shortcuts. |
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| ▲ | Miraste 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you want a little more consistency for muscle memory, ctrl+L goes to the address bar on Windows the same way cmd+L goes to it on Mac. Same for ctrl+W and cmd+W to close tabs. |
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| ▲ | cmiller1 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've always found the opposite, do you have any examples where macOS falls short compared to Windows in shortcut consistency? |
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| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | intrasight 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Isn't part of this Microsoft preparing for the requirement to do age verification in the OS? |
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| ▲ | GeekyBear 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It has more to do with Microsoft deciding to emulate Google and Facebook's surveillance capitalism business model. If you combine mandatory online user accounts with telemetry and Windows Recall, you have a system for building out advertising profiles linked to known individuals. | | |
| ▲ | intrasight 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I get that. But it's also the case that they can justify this by claiming that they have to do it for each verification. |
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| ▲ | randusername 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The year is 2050. Desktop operating systems are a relic of the past. Windows collapsed inwards on itself in 2031 when MS realized telemetry data was 10X as profitable when sold directly to nosy exes, neighbors, priests, and so on instead of advertising agencies. This practice was highly illegal, but the MS legal team unanimously ruled that SCOTUS's ruling on it was unconstitutional. Nevertheless, society barely survived. Windows XP lives on quietly powering ATMs. We also still have Surface Tablets. They don't function anymore, but they hide the paunch of aging sports commentators well and NFL players and coaches greatly enjoy using them to bludgeon each other on the sidelines. |
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| ▲ | lpcvoid 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And then there's me, hoping they don't realize that Windows is in danger. The world needs less Microslop. |
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| ▲ | z3ratul163071 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| go freely on Linux. did that switch myself few years back. Double Commander is an exact copy with the same (and configurable) shortcuts. |
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| ▲ | kakacik 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| +1 for Total Commander mention, its bizarre how many otherwise smart folks completely ignore this productivity enhancer. I keep showing it to colleagues but they all anyway revert back to basic clunky File explorer and variants. Doesn't matter if I show them that I can be easily 10x faster, do stuff simply impossible otherwise, has tons of plugins etc. its just ignored. |
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| ▲ | grujicd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The only negative side of Total Commander is I'm extremly used to it - been using it since mid 90s. When I compare alternatives on Mac I'm searching for exact keyboard commands, navigation patterns, etc. I'm using Crax Commander, but it's not the same. TC is probably one of the reasons I don't care that much about problems in newer versions of Windows, I don't use Explorer, I don't use windows search, text is viewed with Lister and not Notepad... | |
| ▲ | antiframe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't know about Total Commander because that appears to be Windows-only, but twin-pane "Commanders" (named after NC) do seem more popular in certain circles. They're still in wide use in Eastern Europe. Commanders have also influenced Dolphin, which has a built in twin-pane view (but it's not a commander because it lacks the typical keybinds) and there's a commander called Krusader that is a better fit. | | | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also a big plug for Far: https://farmanager.com/ |
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| ▲ | riversflow 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I use all the shortcuts subconsciously. I realize you probably are referencing visual studio, but at the OS level KDE plasma seems to have copped Windows hot keys wholesale. I was giving it a go recently and was delighted that even meta+arrow keys for monitor switching fullscreen apps works. My only gripe, and what got me booting back into windows, was that even the latest wifi drivers for my brand new wifi 7 motherboard were too flaky to reliably play multiplayer online games. |
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| ▲ | TimTheTinker 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > the latest wifi drivers for my brand new wifi 7 motherboard were too flaky A GL.iNet travel router in WiFi to ethernet bridge mode is an excellent stopgap until Linux support arrives. It also has the benefits of (a) taking with you on trips for safer/easier internet use (use your home SSID, even auto-VPN traffic if you want) and (b) letting you plug in other wired-only devices adjacent to the computer. Here are their travel routers filtered to just those that support WiFi 6 and 7: https://store-us.gl-inet.com/collections/travel-routers?filt... |
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| ▲ | lowbloodsugar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’ve got three monitors on my MacBook plus its screen; I know all the keyboard shortcuts and then have automation with various other things. It was hard at first back in 2010 when I moved from Windows. It became second nature within a year and I’ve never looked back. Windows is fucking awful. |
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| ▲ | smrtinsert 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For the AI frontier, I find my windows PC just about useless unfortunately. Too much tooling and package doesn't adapt to WSL+windows host well. I've shifted my entire dev experience to my mbp which used to be my backup. Can't imagine the new generation of vibe coder will even consider a windows box. |
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| ▲ | phendrenad2 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Too much tooling and package doesn't adapt to WSL+windows host well Curious about this, what specifically? |
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| ▲ | anal_reactor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've been using MacBook at work for years and I still perceive UX as fundamentally broken - I'm incapable of doing basic operations in Finder or changing basic system settings, and random shit I didn't want to press pops up when I'm doing other things. I feel like my grandpa trying to adjust to new phone. I will never ever recommend anything Apple to anyone. Having said the above, I think that KDE is almost there to have a functional UX that can replace Windows. Not there yet because of random bugs, but almost almost. Once gamers actually switch to Linux, which is a viable thing, they'll teach their family members. Home users will switch to Linux, and Windows will become an exclusively enterprise and government thing. But once average person is comfortable with Linux because they have it at home, those institutions will start switching to Linux too. And that's how Microsoft will fall. Just like most other corporations - through their own greed. |
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| ▲ | shevy-java 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I'm still a Windows power user I used to be, but in 2004 I switched to Linux. I still use windows as a secondary operating system on another computer, though only Win10. I decided I will not transition to anything after Win10 as Microslop declared war on the users with Win11. Which was the case already before Win11, of course, but I feel the qualitative difference is too much now. |
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| ▲ | sieabahlpark 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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