If the Ramones put their name on all sorts of merchandise does that make them sellouts?

I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians.

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mosessupposed 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I believe in the idea that if you really do the hell out of something, you can make up for a lot of shortcomings. Quantity and spirit can substitute for quality in almost all artistic pursuits.

Here's Bill Withers on selling out: “Sellout… I’m not crazy about the word. We’re all entrepreneurs. To me, I don’t care if you own a furniture store or whatever – the best sign you can put up is SOLD OUT.”

	▲	card_zero an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Sell meant "give" in Old English, including the sense of "give up", "surrender", "betray". (Their word for sell was equivalent to be-buy.) https://www.etymonline.com/word/sell Etymonline says the meaning "betray for gain" is from 1200. So this is probably where "sellout" comes from. Compare with "he sold us out". There's an entry for sellout* too: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=sellout "corrupt bargain".

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mtts 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> they were terrible musicians

Not only are the songs they wrote really good and catchy, Ramones are one of those bands where it sounds so easy anyone can do it but if you give it a try, you quickly find out it’s difficult to get the nuances right and your results, unlike theirs, sound crude and obviously amateurish.

They’re like AC/DC in that respect. Or Melvins.

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pfannkuchen an hour ago | parent [-]

But have you tried recording your version and also playing it in public and promoting it for decades? It’s possible that’s what is making the one thing sound like it has something hard to name, and the other one not.

Like if you are sloppy there is an element of randomness in the output, and any particular randomness will be difficult to replicate.

	▲	saidnooneever 23 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		for this stuff its mostly just a question of buy same gear really. they play a bit 'wild' so esp live it wasnt like super clean. but the sound is mostly having the right kit including recording gear / setup or live equipment etc. depending on what ur trying to do. playing sloppy isnt too hard to replicate.

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b00ty4breakfast an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I know most people don't take the concept of "selling out" seriously anymore, but the Ramones would not be sellouts for making Ramones merch. If they had turned into a hair metal band, where they would otherwise not make hair metal, just so they could sell a bunch of records, that would be selling out. Merely making money is not selling out

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boomboomsubban 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

So something like getting Phil Spector to produce their record?

	▲	b00ty4breakfast 26 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		given the massive influence of 60s girl groups on the Ramones, I would say that getting one of the architects of that sound to produce their record is not selling out. To stay on the "hair metal" example I gave, getting Mutt Lange circa Pyromania to produce a Ramones record would be selling out.

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belZaah 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Terrible in which way? Did not use counterpoint sufficiently elegantly? It’s punk, mate. Try to do a set downpicking like Johnny.

	▲	gexla 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yeah, punk was a bit of a rejection of the polish of the big bands of the time. In a sense, the "horrible" was sort of the point. And for the shock value. But did that really mean they were horrible? Probably everyone kind of sucks at first. But it's hard not to improve your skills once you have got to a point where you have done a certain number of shows because you created a sustainable cash flow to support it.

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DeathArrow an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians.

This makes me to wonder why do you and other people like them and why were them influential?

Isn't a band's purpose to produce good music and aren't people supposed to like musicians because they produce good music?

	▲	an hour ago \| parent [-]
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