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adrr 6 hours ago

Our houses should be DC. So wasteful to have all these bricks to change to AC to DC.

bigiain 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure, maybe?

If your house gets 800V DC you're still gonna need "bricks" to convert that to 5VDC of 12VDC (or maybe 19VDC) that most of the things that currently have "bricks" need.

And if your house gets lower voltage DC, you're gonna have the problem of worth-stealing sized wiring to run your stove, water heater, or car charger.

I reckon it'd be nice to have USB C PD ports everywhere I have a 220VAC power point, but 5 years ago that'd have been a USB type A port - and even now those'd be getting close to useless. We use a Type I (AS/NZS 2112) power point plug here - and that hasn't needed to change in probably a century. I doubt there's ever been a low voltage DC plug/socket standard that's lasted in use for anything like that long - probably the old "car cigarette lighter" 12DC thing? I'm glad I don't have a house full of those.

ericd 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Something to consider, and something I got a vivid demonstration of while playing with solar panels, DC arcs aren't self-extinguishing, unlike AC arcs. At one point I stuck a voltage probe in, and the arc stuck with it as I pulled the probe away. It also vaporized the metal tip of the probe.

My understanding is that DC breakers are somewhat prone to fires for this reason, too.

bigiain 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Heh - I vaporised a fairly large soldering iron tip (probably 4mm copper cylindrical bar?), when I fucked up soldering a connector to a big 7 cell ~6000mAHr LiPo battery and shorted the terminals. Quite how I didn't end up blind or in hospital I don't know. It reinforced just how much respect you need to pay to even low-ish voltage DC when the available current was likely able to exceed 700A by a fair margin momentarily. I think those cells were rated at 60C continuous and 120C for 5 seconds.

ericd 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

heh man, I'm glad you got out of that easy, I definitely wore safety glasses 100% of the time after my experience. I think a lifetime of experience with dangerous wall outlets and harmless little 1.5V/9V DC cells teaches us the wrong lessons about DC safety. I've since heard stories of wrenches exploding when they fall across EV high voltage battery terminals. Wrenches aren't supposed to be explosive.

The electricians I was working with also told me stories about how with the really big breakers, you don't stand in front of it when you throw it, because sometimes it can turn into a cloud of molten metal vapor. And that's just using them as intended.

scheme271 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A bunch of those big breakers require two people. One person in a flash suit and another with a 2m long pole around the first person. That way if an arc flash happens, the second person can yank the first person to safety without also getting hurt.

pocksuppet 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Why don't they use the pole to flip the breaker from 2m away?

defrost 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Ruins the fun and interrupts instilling respect deep into the bones of interns.

Allegedly

While on "work experience" from high school I was put on washing power lines coming straight out of the local power station near the ocean - lots of salt buildups to clear.

Same deal, flashover suits and occasional arcs .. and much laughter from the ground operators who drifted the work bucket close.

bluGill 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Amps - the old 48vdc telco data centers vaporized wrenchs once in a while.

jacquesm 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Those harmless 9V DC cells can do a lot of damage if you use them right.

jacquesm 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You got super lucky.

bigiain 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep. Super super lucky. I suspect my reading glasses are the only reason I can still see anything.

jacquesm 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I have a couple of those narrow escapes one of which led me to put a significant chunk of Eastern Amsterdam out of power. Another involved Beryllium oxide. 9 lives are barely enough.

swamp_donkey 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ah! Perhaps you are a member of the gigawatt club? Eligible for entry once you have accidentally tripped off 1000 MW of load or generation! No sweeping that under the table

bigiain 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would read that book...

jacquesm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

'Stupid stuff I've done and survived'...

toast0 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> DC arcs aren't self-extinguishing, unlike AC arcs. At one point I stuck a voltage probe in, and the arc stuck with it as I pulled the probe away. It also vaporized the metal tip of the probe.

It would have self-extinguished if you waited long enough for the probe to vaporize.

torginus 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've had discussed with people familiar with the matter, and they convinced me its really not worth it for many reasons, the main one being safety - DC arcs are self sustaining - AC voltage constantly goes to zero, so if an arc were to form, it gets auto extinguished when the voltage drops. With DC this never happens, meaing every switch or plug socket can create this nice long arcs and is a potential fire hazard.

jacquesm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The 'what is safer' question for DC and AC at the same effective current and power has a mixed set of answers depending on conditions. For instance, DC is more likely to cause your muscles to contact and not let go (bad), but AC is more likely to send your heart into ventricular fibrillation (sp?, also bad).

AC arcs are easier to extinguish than DC arcs, but DC will creep much easier than AC and so on.

From a personal point of view: I've worked enough with both up to about 1KV at appreciable power levels and much higher than that at reduced power. Up to 50V or so I'd rather work with DC than AC but they're not much different. Up to 400V or so above that I'd much rather have AC and above 400V the answer is 'neither' because you're in some kind of gray zone where creep is still low so you won't know something is amiss until it is too late. And above 1KV in normal settings (say, picture tubes in old small b&w tvs and higher up when they're color and larger) and it will throw you right across the room but you'll likely live because the currents are low.

HF HV... now that's a different matter and I'm very respectful of anything in that domain, and still have a burn from a Tronser trimmer more than 45 years after it happened. Note to self: keep eye on SWR meter/Spectrum analyzer and finger position while trimming large end stages.

Tempest1981 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> DC will creep much easier than AC

Can you say more about "creep"? Is the resistance changing? Or is material actually migrating?

Also curious why it's worse using DC.

adiabatichottub 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Really depends on what we're talking about. A lot of electrical safety equipment has a DC rating, usually something like 90VDC/300VAC. Also, most DC equipment just isn't going to have the stored energy to generate a big arc. Well, except batteries, and we're already piling them all around us.

torginus 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean it depends, but for dual rated stuff has both a voltage and current limit, both of which are way lower. Like typically a 230V/20A AC switch can switch 24VDC/2A. And the energy is not in the equipment, its in the mains (or batteries like you said, or PV panels)

adiabatichottub 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, but that's why I mentioned safety equipment. Your common DIN-mount UL-489 branch circuit breaker will be rated for the same trip current, same short circuit current rating (SCCR), but lower voltage. So you can use the same wiring and breakers as you might have with AC and your 48V battery bank won't vaporize the $5 hardware store toggle switch that somehow became a shunt.

bandrami 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've worked overseas a lot and one thing that's really different from 2 decades ago is that I simply don't need a step-down transformer anymore because every single thing I plug in converts to DC (or otherwise accepts dual-voltage) anyways. So I have a giant collection of physical plug adapters because every device I use just needs to fit into the socket and takes care of it from there.

(My stand mixer is the lone sad exception)

747fulloftapes 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreed!

I spent a few years getting flown out around the world to service gear at different datacenters. I learned to pack an IEC 60320 C14 to NEMA 5-15R adapter cable and a dumb, un-protected* NEMA 5-15R power strip. While on-site at the datacenters, an empty PDU receptacle was often easy to find. At hotels, I'd bring home a native cable borrowed from or given to me by the native datacenter staff or I'd ask the hotel front desk to borrow a "computer power cable," (more often, I'd just show them a photo) and they generally were able to lend me one. It worked great. I never found a power supply that wasn't content with 208 or 240V.

Example adapters: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FD7PHB7Y or https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IBIC1XG

*: Some fancier power strips with surge suppression have a MOV over-voltage varistor that may burn up if given 200V+, rendering the power strip useless. Hence, unprotected strips are necessary.

kccqzy 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s actually a recent phenomenon. Before the age of electronics most household appliances either worked with AC or DC equally well (like incandescent bulbs) or worked well with AC only given the technology at the time (think anything with a motor, fans, HVAC compressors etc).

analog31 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Taking it to an extreme, the house I lived in while in grad school had wall lamp fixtures that doubled as electric and gas lamps. At some point I imagine it would have been possible to choose between using electric or gas by either flipping the switch or turning a valve. They said "Edison Patent" on them. We could have lit the house on AC, DC, or gas.

Thinking about the failure modes gave me the heebie jeebies, but the gas had been disconnected ages prior.

eszed an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I lived in a 19th century house in San Francisco that had gorgeous plaster work medallions on the ceilings - think cherubs and fruits - in the middle of which were the light fixtures. One day my dumb-ass flatmate made an ill-advised attempt to DIY his light fixture and cracked the still-active gas line embedded in the ceiling. Sometime in the 1920s - the date was printed on a sticker in the electrical panel - when they electrified the house, they'd wrapped the electrical wires around the gas pipes, and left them otherwise in situ. Crazy stuff.

jazzyjackson 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s kind of fun that light switches predate electricity. I think you used to turn a key, I guess you were turning a valve? Now that I think of it using a key to operate a valve makes a lot of sense but you don’t see it too often, well, I guess you want to turn things off without needing to find a key…

jwilliams 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are niches where DC makes sense - low-voltage lighting, USB/LED ecosystems.

Once you get into higher power (laptops and up), switching and distribution get harder, so the advantages fade.

For bigger appliances (fridge, etc), AC is fine + practical.

adiabatichottub 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Your modern fridge is probably going to have an inverter-driven motor, so you're right back to using DC.

adrr 5 hours ago | parent [-]

All modern appliances and HVACs are using inverter drive motors for efficiency. Brushless DC motors are more efficient though.

userbinator 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"Brushless DC motors" are actually just AC synchronous motors.

flowerthoughts 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm renovating a house, and have been considering 24V or 48V DC outlets in a few rooms. Semiconductors become more expensive above ~32V, so 24V might be the sweetspot.

However, there's also PoE (24 or 48V!), so maybe that's the right approach. It's not like each outlet is going to run a heater anyway.

fc417fc802 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

Lower voltage makes voltage drop across the line proportionally worse. Depending on the purpose PoE is probably the way to go since the wiring and hardware is all standardized and safety certified.

Unless you mean running AC and installing inverters in the wall? What is this even for? All my electronics are DC but critically they all require different voltages. The only thing I might benefit from would be higher voltage service because there are times that 15 A at 120 V doesn't cut it.

epx 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Having a single big DC converter at a home would help a lot with power factor (LED lamps connected directly to AC have terrible power factor).

Mistletoe 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Modern bricks really aren’t that inefficient though. An Apple charger is like 90% efficient. A DC to DC converter is about that efficient or worse.

catlikesshrimp 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The power adapters became so efficient that we have to transition to wireless charging to keep it down

The irony...