| ▲ | hshdhdhj4444 2 days ago |
| This article has such a weird framing. It keeps repeating how the cleaner air is so good for tourists. But tourists visiting Paris for a week don’t get the majority of the benefit from cleaner air. The Parisian residents living there throughout the year do. Maybe because it’s CNN, an American outlet, they’re focused on the “tourist”, but these benefits have mostly accrued to Parisians. Also, the 4% increase in traffic jams is minuscule when compared to other large cities across the world (outside of maybe NYC, since it implemented congestion pricing over that period). Paris has not escaped the wrath of the SUV, and a large part of the congestion cities across the world are seeing is solely down to cars becoming bigger. |
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| ▲ | frnx 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| The new large cycling strips that appeared in the last 5-6 years are so good. At commute time there are frequently jammed with /cyclists/, but let's face it it's miles better than being stuck in a car. I shudder to think about the alternative where each cyclist was instead alone in a small car, this wouldn't even fit on the roads. |
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| ▲ | philamonster 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I would love to be on what amounts to a group ride to and from work safely. That has to do wonders for all kinds of things both physical and mental. If it were safe I would do it year round. | | |
| ▲ | recursivegirth 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I would rather float to work like the Swiss. https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-workers-commute-... | |
| ▲ | tw-20260303-001 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, unless you’re a pedestrian. Cyclists in NL in cities like Utrecht or Amsterdam are worse than car drivers. | | |
| ▲ | david-gpu 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | As a pedestrian, I would rather risk a crash with a cyclist than with a car. | | |
| ▲ | tw-20260303-001 2 days ago | parent [-] | | As a pedestrian I would hope that those cyclists remember when they’re pedestrians too. Both can kill you easily. But cars don’t sneak up on you silent from behind when you’re on a sidewalk. | | |
| ▲ | david-gpu a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Have you looked at any actual data about the rate at which drivers and cyclists kill people in your area? Can you even find news about the last time a cyclist killed a pedestrian in your city? Because I keep an eye on the official Police stats in Toronto and it is eye-opening. Statistically, drivers kill people, and cyclists don't. It is not even remotely close. | | |
| ▲ | jay_kyburz a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Just a single anecdote, but one death made the papers here last year because it was an e-bike that hit and elderly gentleman. The e-bike had been modded and the media was suggesting the cyclist faced jail time as a result. (if I remember correctly) | | |
| ▲ | Throaway1975123 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | e bikes aren't supposed to go over 30kmph, or else they require a license as a motor vehicle. | |
| ▲ | david-gpu a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Terrible news. How many people were killed by drivers since then? What happens when you look at a decade worth of data? |
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| ▲ | tw-20260303-001 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t care about your stats. The fact is: cars move in their dedicated space. Most of them obey most of the traffic rules. Bicycles and scooters zoom past me on the sidewalk and it doesn’t make me feel safe. Neither having to jump over them on a sidewalk. I’m young, I can, but my mother cannot and it’s a problem for her. So take your stats and read them alone. Thanks, I take a car. I’m from the generation who doesn’t have their noses glued to mobile phone 24/7. | | |
| ▲ | stefs a day ago | parent | next [-] | | while i don't agree with your general sentiment you're right that bicycles should have their own dedicated cycle lanes. too often drivers get their dedicated lanes while pedestrians and cyclists are forced to "share space and just take care of each other". | |
| ▲ | david-gpu a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sorry to hear that your mom is struggling. It sounds like you are going through a lot. |
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| ▲ | thrance a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Both can kill you easily. What a ridiculous statement. Motorized vehicles are involved in the vast majority of road casualties. You are much, much more likely to die from a car accident than a bike accident. | | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Motorized and bikes are not exclusive. | | |
| ▲ | thrance 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ugh... You know perfectly well from context that by "bikes" I meant "bicycles". I am making the effort of speaking in your language, please don't use these linguistic gotchas against me. | | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know any difference between bikes and bicycles. I am also not a native English speaker. This wasn't supposed to be a linguistic gotcha, but a semantic one. |
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| ▲ | convolvatron a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | as a former pedestrian only and bike rider for the last 5 years, we really do have to admit that bike riders can be real assholes. whether or not the level of injury is the same, it definitely feels an unwarranted physical threat to have a biker shoot past you from behind or run you down in the crosswalk. | | |
| ▲ | albedoa a day ago | parent [-] | | Do we have to admit that in this sub-thread? Your sentiment is better placed where we are not currently deriding the absurd take that "both can kill you easily". There is no recovery to be had here. > whether or not the level of injury is the same It is not the same. | | |
| ▲ | tw-20260303-001 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > There is no recovery to be had here. Of course there is. The world isn’t black and white. I said “could”, there are many shades of grey in between. Don’t be such an absolutist, like your truth is the truest one. > It is not the same. Well, … it depends, no? | |
| ▲ | convolvatron a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | sorry, I just really don't like this glib response that while I might be unnecessarily aggressive and threaten you, its not really not a problem since the likelihood that I'll actually _kill_ you is much lower than if I were the same idiot driving a car. |
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| ▲ | tw-20260303-001 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s ridiculous because it doesn’t fit your narrative. A bicycle hitting you are 15mph is going to fuck you up one way or another. | | |
| ▲ | NeutralCrane a day ago | parent | next [-] | | You are not making a good faith argument when you refute this person by saying this “doesn’t fit your narrative” two comments removed from you telling another person that you have no interest in their statistics because of how you feel. | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're using biased language there, which to be fair is common when people discuss RTCs. A collision between a pedestrian and a cyclist going at around 15mph is more likely to lead to the cyclist getting more hurt and the blame is slightly more likely (something like 60%/40%) to be attributed to the pedestrian. Whilst a lot of people are fearful of cyclists and pedestrians sharing space (often due to cyclists being quiet and passing very close), the statistics show that the actual danger comes from car drivers, even just looking at incidents on the pavement. The thing is that cyclists have "skin in the game" and so have a disincentive to collide with anything. There are certainly idiots on bikes, but it's far better to get as many idiots as possible out of cars and onto bikes (or ideally walking) for the purpose of harm minimisation. Every idiot on a bike could be an idiot that drives. |
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| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most collisions between cyclists and pedestrians end up with the cyclist getting more hurt. Also, the blame for collisions is slightly more attributed to pedestrians (e.g. walking across a cycle lane without looking). As I recall, pedestrians are more likely to be killed by a driver whilst on the pavement, so whilst collisions may be more frequent with cyclists, they are extremely unlikely to lead to a KSI. | |
| ▲ | financetechbro a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unless they’re EVs tho right | | |
| ▲ | tw-20260303-001 a day ago | parent [-] | | You reckon EVs drive on a sidewalk? Maybe you consider moving. Seems like you’re surrounded by idiots. | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Cars are only on an honor system to not hop the curb and murder you.
At least you expect bikes on the sidewalk and can keep the risk in mind. There isn’t much you can do to prepare for the possibility of, say, an SUV vaporizing you and your family on the sidewalk because the 80yo driver zoned out. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/mar/20/san-francisc... | |
| ▲ | aidenn0 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Two of my neighbors were hit and killed by a car while walking on the sidewalk. The car was going in excess of 150km/h, hit the median, and swerved back, out of control into the sidewalk. |
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| ▲ | Rebelgecko a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | How often do cyclists kill pedestrians relative to drivers? |
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| ▲ | consp 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You haven't been in a bicycle-jam until you've been before an open bridge just before the university colleges start in the Netherlands. Hundreds of cyclists trying to squeeze through a tiny bottleneck. Still costs less time than by going in a car. | |
| ▲ | throw-the-towel a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well IDK, as a pedestrian in Paris I hate cyclists way more than I hate cars. Cycling in the Netherlands is wonderful; here, it might well have been a mistake. | |
| ▲ | suddenlybananas 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I do wonder how many cyclists in Paris are really replacing cars versus replacing metro usage. Obviously, it's still good for people to cycle as well since the metro can be insanely crowded at times, but living in Paris, my impression is that the people who cycle are the kinds who would have been unlikely to own a car in any case. | | |
| ▲ | nchagnet 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That's a really good point, I hope at the very least it enables a "car -> public transport -> bikes" flow. So even if these people were taking the metro, all that extra metro space can accomodate car-owners who wish to switch. | | |
| ▲ | martinald a day ago | parent [-] | | It depends though. At least in London a lot of cycleways were made by removing bus lanes and replacing them with high quality segregated cycle lanes. This has led to a big increase in %age terms of cyclists in London, but a fairly significant decline in bus passengers. I think roughly 300m/yr cycle journeys were added, but bus has lost 500m pax/yr (mainly because of increased congestion making them less and less attractive). Note this isn't all down to bus lane removal, but it's a significant part of it. |
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| ▲ | kergonath 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I do wonder how many cyclists in Paris are really replacing cars versus replacing metro usage. That’s not necessarily a problem, particularly for saturated lines like the 13. | |
| ▲ | saltysalt 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Exactly. |
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| ▲ | jay_kyburz a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't love the waist high black poles that separate the roads from the cycle lanes on some roads. They are not visible enough. When we were there a few years ago we saw a young woman on a bike slam into one on her morning commute. I nearly nutted myself a few time too. | |
| ▲ | drnick1 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > At commute time there are frequently jammed with /cyclists/, but let's face it it's miles better than being stuck in a car. Cycling is wonderful, except when it rains, when it's cold, when it's hot, when it's windy, or when you want to carry stuff. So it's not a practical solution 80% of the year. | | |
| ▲ | mcv a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Get a rain coat, a warm coat, take it off, and make sure you've got a big crate on your bike. Wind does suck. I can't help you there. | | |
| ▲ | occz a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Electric assist helps with the wind. Or just building some fitness, which in my experience comes automatically when you bike | |
| ▲ | drnick1 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unless you have a place to shower and change at work or wherever you go, biking is utterly impractical. That's also assuming you have a safe place where to leave your bike, and that your commute is like 10 miles or less. | | |
| ▲ | mcv 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not true. There's no need to shower after a short trip. Or even a 10km trip, if you don't exert yourself too much. But fortunately many offices do have showers. Also, bike locks exist. There are millions of people who find cycling incredibly practical, so claiming it's impractical for some easily debunked reasons only shows the limitations of your experience. But you can fix that. Give it a try. |
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| ▲ | ZeroGravitas a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I often say that when cycling I don't mind the cold, the rain or the wind, only when you get all three at once it gets bad. | |
| ▲ | gambiting a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | God I hate this argument so much - it's just such an obviously incorrect statement which is always hard to win against because then the other side will always say "well what if you live in Novosibirsk and it's -60C outside, WHAT THEN CYCLISTS" - well nothing, if you live there then yeah I guess it doesn't work. But if you live in London, Paris, Warsaw, Barcelona, Talin or Stockholm it just doesn't hold water , and these are places that get very hot, very cold, get plenty of rain, snow and wind. It's like that old thing about beetles being too heavy to fly but also they can't read so they don't care - somehow cyclists in these places just get on their bikes and get to work and carry stuff and stay dry or cold or warm and it's fine, despite what the internet thinks. | | |
| ▲ | marc_g a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m with you. As someone who cycles every day, just put the right clothes on when the weather calls for it, and if you need to buy a sofa, then rent an hourly car for ten bucks. | |
| ▲ | hectdev a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've been to Copenhagen in the dead of winter with snow on the ground and my mind was blown by how many bikes there were on the streets. It really is an adaptable activity. | | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | I believe they prioritise clearing snow/ice from the cycle lanes. Personally, I enjoy cycling on snow as it's often not that slippery and due to the cold, I'll usually have a fair amount of clothing to act as padding for if I do come off. Black ice is worse as the rest of the road may be fine, so you go fast until suddenly you're sliding down the road. |
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| ▲ | jfengel 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | On a nice day it's fantastic to be out, but Paris can be cold and rainy. They really need to have a plan for those days, too. Paris Metro is pretty nice, and reaches most of the car free area. But I'm not sure if it can handle all of the cyclists if they're all trying to avoid a déluge. | | |
| ▲ | nchagnet 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I live in the Netherlands where the weather is arguably tougher than in Paris (rain, cold and wind for large portion of the year) yet everyone bikes year in year out. And not just young active people, it's a habit found across all age groups, parents bike their children to school (or with them if old enough, etc.) All that to say I wouldn't worry too much about the feasibility issue, it's really more of a mindset to adopt, and it's happening more and more in France. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Paris has one thing that Amsterdam does not that makes cycling more challenging: elevation. (Ok, Amsterdam has bridges but those are for the most part really short and momentum is enough to carry you across). | | |
| ▲ | consp 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I seriously consider 6-7bft headwind far worse than any hill. Won't get that in large cities but a bit out that's normal cycling weather. | | | |
| ▲ | microtonal 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I cycled to work every day in Southern Germany, which had even more elevation, it was not a huge problem, you get fit enough in now time. Older people just use e-bikes. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Older people just use e-bikes. Or those with bad legs. Raises hand. |
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| ▲ | nchagnet 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh I agree. When I lived in Lyon, who is also quite bike-friendly, it was a lot more challenging than Amsterdam. But with electric bikes becoming more affordable, hopefully the gap can eventually close. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I've become utterly addicted to my e-bike. You can have my car, but my e-bike stays. |
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| ▲ | prpl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In amsterdam, few people wear modern/synthetic rain coats as well. Just riding around in the rain with what I assume must be waxed duck out something | |
| ▲ | stef25 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > the Netherlands It's completely flat and the obvious reason why everyone cycles. Nothing to do with mindset, like you're somehow superior to the rest of EU. | | |
| ▲ | david-gpu 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Bicycles have had gears for almost a century, and they allow to tackle hilly areas easily. Also, the Netherlands is notoriously windy, and a headwind is just as difficult as a hill. No, what makes the Netherlands different is their street design prioritizing safety rather than speed at all costs. When the streets feel safe from speeding drivers, more people choose to ride a bike. | | |
| ▲ | stef25 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Bicycles have had gears for almost a century, and they allow to tackle hilly areas easily. Assuming everyone but you is retarded. | | |
| ▲ | david-gpu a day ago | parent [-] | | Not at all. I simply suspect that you are uninformed about why cycling is popular in the Netherlands. In the 60s the Netherlands was just as flat as it is today, but it wasn't a cycling paradise. It all changed with the campaign "Stop de Kindermoord" (literally translated as "Stop the Child Murder"), which began in 1972. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands#His... |
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| ▲ | nchagnet 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Considering I'm not Dutch, you may feel reassured there is no superiority feeling at play here. I agree with another commenter that while flat, the Netherlands have their own hurdles (biking with a strong headwind on the banks of the IJ is not easy, even if flat), and I definitely agree that their city design is what makes this unique. I lived in various parts of France growing up, and I can assure you there are flat cities there, yet biking in them felt very risky at best. |
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| ▲ | IneffablePigeon 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This “nobody cycles in bad weather” is a tired myth. Yes, there’s some truth in it but cycling numbers past the traffic counters in my city in the UK (very similar climate) dip by 10-30% in winter months, and the higher end of those is mostly leisure routes not commuting ones. The Netherlands has a lot of rain and much more cycling than most other places. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Summer here is on Tuesday. The rest of the year it is rain, alternating with fog, snow & ice. Nah, jk, it's a beautiful day today and I'm thinking of going for a ride. |
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| ▲ | p_j_w 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is overblown. I visited Tokyo recently and a friend of mine was constantly riding his bike around in the middle of a cold and snowy winter. He wasn't the only one, either. | |
| ▲ | enriquto 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Paris can be cold and rainy I cycle in Paris every week, and the only annoying experience climate-wise is the extreme heat you can get some days in july and august. If it's cold or wet, you can just wear appropriate clothes and be comfortable. But if it's sunny and 35°C, you are going to be drenched in sweat no matter what! Of course, being in the metro those days is even worse... | |
| ▲ | hamdingers 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Put on a jacket. One of the saddest effects of car-dependency is people forgetting how to dress themselves for the weather. | |
| ▲ | microtonal 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have cycled every working day in The Netherlands and in Germany for years (in Germany it was 22km per day) and I would often cycle a bit recreationally in the weekends. It really isn't an issue at all. I just have a waterproof jacket (one of those that circulate air as well), water resistant shoes, and rain pants. On very rainy days, I would put on the rain pants and would arrive mostly dry. It is not really an issue. The only thing that was slightly meh was the yearly ~two weeks of thick snow in Southern Germany. It increases effort a bit, but still not a huge issue and the cycling roads got cleared pretty quickly. | | |
| ▲ | bethekidyouwant 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I would almost believe this, except for your shoes get absolutely soaked. | | |
| ▲ | microtonal 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They don't, Gore-Tex Eccos with high-enough collars. (Gore-Tex does have other issues though.) | |
| ▲ | alamortsubite 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not necessarily. I have a pair of Gore-tex Nikes that are amazing. |
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| ▲ | iamkonstantin 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think it’s no easy task to reform a city away from being car-centric. In my home town of Ghent (in Belgium), we’ve had several iterations of a traffic plan that gradually reduces the number of parking spaces, rises taxes and car related costs, makes streets one way or deprioritises cars (e.g. a car doesn’t have priority over a bike anymore) etc. It’s not easy but the city today is a lot more liveable than it was when all this started. |
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| ▲ | skeletal88 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | But then public transport has to improve also. You cant make owning a car impossible without offering alternatives. | | |
| ▲ | stalfie 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Alternatives naturally become more viable over time as more and more people find car use impossible, but its kind of hard to tell in advance which lanes of public transport are most necessary to improve. So imo the best solution is just to do it, and then see what happens and adapt. It's too hard to plan out everything in advance, and if you try you get deadlocked politically and nothing ends up happening. So you just find the best lever you can to reduce traffic immediately, and just start pressing it. But you warn everyone that you're pressing it, and when you do so you do it slowly. The reality is that a lot of traffic is simply unnecessary, and dissipates once you add some friction. The most extreme example of that is the rise of remote work during and after Covid. As it turns out, none of these people actually needed to go anywhere. And more generally, cars induce their own demand simply by virtue of being the fastest and most comfortable option, and they shape the environment around them to depend on them. Small local shops get outcompeted by distant behemoths due it being more convenient to drive. People move to a large house in a distant suburb rather than a small apartment because they know it's just thirty minutes away from work by car anyways. The easier it is to drive, the more entrenched driving becomes. And any way you slice it, undoing that process will cause pain, so you might as well go ahead and start, because you're never going to find a way to prevent the consequences anyway. | |
| ▲ | rsynnott 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Generally, restrictions on cars make public transport better automatically, as they make buses work better. | | |
| ▲ | zahlman 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It certainly helps the buses move more efficiently, but it can't do much about things like bus stop placement, or just generally sense of place as you start or end your trip. | | |
| ▲ | alamortsubite 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > it can't do much about things like bus stop placement Why not? Fewer cars means more room for bus stops. | | |
| ▲ | zahlman 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Because there has to be a place where the bus stop could sensibly be. A history of car-centric design often eliminates those opportunities. | | |
| ▲ | alamortsubite 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I see. I think you're talking about stop placement on a higher level? Removing street parking can free up room for lots of extra stops, which can help with bus bunching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching | | |
| ▲ | zahlman a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm talking about what you physically see, or even step over, at the actual physical location where you're contemplating putting the bus stop; which is there because people were only thinking about cars when doing the zoning and construction. |
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| ▲ | bluGill a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | car centric areas put their front door far from anyplace a but can easilly get. Either the but slows everyone else down because it is going in and out of all these parking lots and cul-de-sacs, or the walk from the but stop to where you are going is already your entire travel budget. | | |
| ▲ | alamortsubite a day ago | parent [-] | | I think it gets confusing because we start out talking about cities but we'd also like to include other areas that are overrun with cars in the conversation. Buses in Ghent and Paris aren't going to be navigating parking lots and cul-de-sacs, no matter how much car infrastructure is removed. We can free up a lot of room for bus stops, though, which helps keep buses moving smoothly. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Suburbs are either cities in their own right, or part of the whole city. It deoesn't make sense in this discussion to think of them as not part af the city: they cover too much of the population. |
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| ▲ | mantas a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not really. Unless the restriction is to take a generic lane and dedicate it to buses. But if restriction is to take a generic lane and give it to bicycles, then both cars and buses sit in the same traffic jam. | | |
| ▲ | rsynnott a day ago | parent [-] | | So, first, it would be rare to bring in restrictions of this sort without doing something to buses. But even if you _don’t_, reduction in traffic helps buses (assuming you already have bus lanes, which any city doing this stuff generally would, the main problem for buses is intersections, which this helps with) | | |
| ▲ | mantas 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | It`s totally possible. My city excels at this. We are at level where bus system is not enough at all. But the municipality is trying to avoid it since it’s seen as politically tricky. Nobody wants to start it, take the beating and then let opponents cut the tape a decade later. The bus system is struggling too. Old buses, incomplete bus lanes and so on. When one jackass got an idea to reduce car traffic and started with adding obstacles to cars without improving public transit… Traffic did not better. And buses get stuck with the rest. Thankfully remote/hybrid work is all the rage. In recent decade quite a few offices and other workplaces moved away from urban core. That helps the situation a bit. |
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| ▲ | tikhonj 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | None of the changes in the comment make owning a car impossible, they just make driving marginally less privileged over walking and biking. | | |
| ▲ | the_biot 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No, it's worse than that. The city council very much implemented an anti-car (harassment) policy, to the point that car owners felt hounded by their own council's policies. It seriously wasn't a matter of "marginally less privileged". | | |
| ▲ | TimK65 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Motorists are incredibly fragile. I'm glad Paris has had a mayor who could stand up to their entitled whinging. | | |
| ▲ | dwedge 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Motorists are an easy scapegoat but without alternatives it's just political handwaving. And most people are motorists. Take my city for example. I work in an office block around a 15 minute walk from the centre, which has free parking for employees. Monday this week the city announced that the land is now paid parking to the city effective immediately. When it was pointed out they they hadn't provided any of the necessary signage or machines for this, they decided it was illegal to park there at all, with fines and tow trucks for non compliance. An email from them suggested "cycling or using public transport as the weather is nicer". I cannot stress this enough. No warning, no compromise, no other use for this land, just an immediate draconian announcement. It's very easy to call another group entitled if you're not one of them | | |
| ▲ | enriquto 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > the city announced that the land is now paid parking to the city what a strange way to put it... why didn't they just say that they are not using any more taxpayer money to finance your parking space? Land in a city is not "for free". > It's very easy to call another group entitled if you're not one of them yeah, well: my point, exactly! | | |
| ▲ | dwedge a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I'll be totally honest in that I don't know what the arrangement was before, but that free parking was previously enforced by permits so it's a reasonable assumption that it was not at the tax payers expense | |
| ▲ | bluGill a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You miss the larger point not mentioned: all those motorists will be mad and looking to vote for someone next election that will undo it all. | | |
| ▲ | input_sh a day ago | parent [-] | | Your job in any political office is not to leave everything as-is and to cement yourself into that position, but to make marginal improvements, even if doing so costs you the next elections or inconveniences people (hopefully only temporarily). Most of those marginal improvements can only be seen as something positive in retrospective, not while they're being made. While they're being made, they'll always be unpopular, as the voter base is usually not keen on defending the people that are currently in charge. That doesn't mean they won't show up in the next elections, just that they are quieter in the meantime. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | in the ideal world maybe - but we don't live in the ideal world: most are trying to get re-elected, or elected to a higher office now that they have experience. and even in the ideal world a great leader can do more in the next term if they get relected. |
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| ▲ | yulker 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Interesting how correctly naming them motorists sharpens how "the default" is often to be presumed drivers and pedestrians and cyclists are marginal | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus a day ago | parent [-] | | I don’t know that it’s a helpful distinction. A lot of people do it all - drive, walk, bike, and take public transit. Only in this kind of discussion do I see people declaring it a team you have to choose. |
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| ▲ | stef25 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Motorists are incredibly fragile Until you throw yourself in front of my car | | |
| ▲ | alamortsubite 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > > Motorists are incredibly fragile > Until you throw yourself in front of my car Fragile with regard to their egos, as illustrated here. |
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| ▲ | hamdingers 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When one is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. | |
| ▲ | Mawr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The starting point is anti-anything-but-a-car, so it's understandable that in the process of getting to any sort of parity you'd feel like it's "harassment". It's like claiming getting rid of slavery is "harassment", because your unfair privileges are being taken back. | |
| ▲ | jadyoyster 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Imagine how "hounded" everyone else feels by driver friendly polies in other cities. |
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| ▲ | jfengel 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a good illustration of why solving climate change isn't just a matter of individual actions. We need to reconsider the whole infrastructure, and you can't do that from the bottom up. | |
| ▲ | Gud 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The cities were recently reformed to be car-centric(1960s) and can be easily reverted. All it takes is an understanding how fucked up it is to operate a 2 tonne personal vehicle everywhere you go(if you are able, which most people aren't, legally or mentally), spread the general knowledge and make a long term commitment to public transport, walking and bicycling. :-) | | | |
| ▲ | jstummbillig 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Honest question: What is the hard part? If you took all of that stuff and did it as quickly as you could somewhere else, what's would be the biggest issue? People + resistance to change of any kind? The outcome seems so obviously good. I have never heard of anyone complaining about a city becoming less car centric, but maybe somehow it's an under-represented story? | | |
| ▲ | gotwaz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Well I sold off my car after realizing I enjoyed the bike ride to work. Then a year later an older family member had a health crisis requiring hospital visits at all possible times of the day and night for many months. Couldnt always rely on cabs and that was the only time I regretted selling the car. But we got through it with friends and fam sharing transport duties. Quite a crazy period so I could imagine it becoming real complicated for certain issues. | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Effectively NIMBYism, but for cars. The political backlash would stop all progress. People don’t like change, even for the better. | |
| ▲ | pizza234 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are places where car is simply the mean of transport - to the point where using the car is preferred to literally a five minutes walk. In contexts like this, using a car is perceived as a right - restricting usage doesn't make people think "I'll take the chance to use the bike", rather "How the f*ck do I get there now?". | | |
| ▲ | apothegm a day ago | parent [-] | | The trouble is that the backlash occurs even in places that are pedestrian and transit dominated. |
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| ▲ | pandaman a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You have not heard people complaining about cities impeding traffic, likely, because of the bubble you live in. That is the thing that makes regular people to run for the city offices. A whole lot of recent "urbanization" is not going to survive for long because of this IMHO. |
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| ▲ | zamadatix 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Paris is consistently somewhere in the top 10 cities worldwide by number of tourists per year and this is an extremely important factor to the city. Even if if Le Monde was writing this in French the impacts to/from tourism would be relevant to the article. |
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| ▲ | fsckboy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >This article has such a weird framing. It keeps repeating how the cleaner air is so good for tourists. it's not a weird framing, it's a clearly marked travel piece on "CNN Travel" the French don't read that, they read French newspapers etc. |
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| ▲ | 0xf8 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed the tourist POV center focus is bizarre AF. it’s almost like they were afraid to ask Parisians or even other French natives regularly frequenting Paris what they thought and so they just went with tourists are happy… |
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| ▲ | zahlman 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When did the fad for compact cars end? Where did all these SUVs come from? Why do drivers want to lug all this extra weight and space around with them all the time? |
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| ▲ | pas 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | in the US it has a few factors, one is that trucks are exempted from some mileage requirements, so suddenly manufacturers started making "legally truck" cars | |
| ▲ | yulker 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | the default car should have been a one person car. we split a normal one lane into two narrow lanes. | | | |
| ▲ | gostsamo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The way I've heard it from drivers, suvs gives you elevation to observe the traffic and the mass to make your bad behavior problem of the other side while you gain real numbers safety. | | |
| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That's a pure negative sum game though. The elevation gives you only a relative improvement in visibility if other vehicles don't increase in elevation in response, at the cost of sightlines for other road users and especially pedestrians, unless they wear platform shoes. The same of course goes with mass. Usually this kind of negative-sum-prisoner's-dilemma incentive matrix is resolved by government intervention which changes the payoff structure. | | |
| ▲ | toast0 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Elevation doesn't have to be zero sum. My compact pickup (a class of vehicles that is barely manufactured anymore) is a little elevated and has an upright seating position, but it also provides good visibility for other street users. The space over the bed is clear (unless I'm carrying something big) and the rear and side windows are vertical and clear allowing vision through; the windshield is raked less than most other vehicles, so it's better for looking through. Of course, as I mentioned, compact pickup trucks are basically dead in the US. You can get a four door car with a three food bed that is marketed as a small truck. If you want a single cab and a six foot bed, you have to buy a full size truck and those are usually taller and bigger and less efficient than a compact truck would be; it can do bigger truck things, but I only need little truck things. Maybe the Bezos truck brings back small trucks to the US. | | |
| ▲ | aidenn0 a day ago | parent [-] | | A big part of the issue is styling: I was next to a GMC pickup on my bike the other day at a stoplight. When I stood up, the hood was roughly shoulder-height for me. They can easily make the hood at least a foot shorter (and probably more) and still fit everything under the hood, or even go with a cab-forward design. But people think those look dorky. At the extreme end of things, it's hard to argue they are wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV | | |
| ▲ | toast0 a day ago | parent [-] | | The NGDV is dorky as hell. But I bet they're very effective for drivers. I've got an old cabover passenger van, visibility for me is pretty good, but if you were next to it on a bike, you wouldn't be able to see over the hood cause there isn't one. It's also pretty dorky, but it's got essentially a porsche engine, which makes it a rear engined mid-life crisis sports car. I have to run it at red line for 30+ seconds to get up to freeway speed... |
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| ▲ | gostsamo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, in the absence of government, it is pure profit for the suv driver and for the car manufacturer who sells higher margin product. And fuck the pedestrians and those in smaller cars. |
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| ▲ | II2II 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Things I noticed right off the bat: framing it as a tourist verses locals issue, a complete lack of numbers backing that claim, and the few numbers presented in the article have any context. I realize this is a travel article, but it seems to be more of a propaganda piece. Take the claim that the locals hate the changes. Well, the mayor was reelected. So they claim the voter turnout was low and people were complaining, so people obviously don't support it. Sorry, you can't make that conclusion. Under ordinary circumstances, 100% turnout would only tell you the overall support for a particular candidate or party, not a particular policy. A low turnout may reflect an electorate who is not particularly passionate in any of the issues presented in the election, or it may mean something else. It was probably something else in the 2020 elections because those were anything but ordinary: they fell during the peak of pandemic uncertainty (i.e. March to June). So a flimsy assertion based upon flimsy evidence. Then there are the scanty numbers without context. A 4% increase in traffic jams since 2015 and 31% decline in bus use between 2018 and 2024. First of all, the words "bus use" sounds highly selective. It looks like the Paris metro has been expanding and modernizing rapidly in recent years, which would both take load off of busses and be disruptive to transit users. Oh, and that pandemic thing raises its head again. I don't know about Paris, but a lot of cities took a hit to transit ridership during the pandemic and some are claiming to reach pre-pandemic levels only now. Also, cyclists tend to be the whipping boy for traffic congestion. I can't speak for Paris, but the reality in my parts are that population growth and a surge in construction have been far more disruptive than cycling infrastructure. Sorry about the rant, but I'm sick and tired of the views of one segment of the population completely overriding the views of another segment of the population ... especially when there are assertions based upon assumptions and flimsy evidence. |
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| ▲ | goldenarm 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Travelers are more sensitive to sudden changes. I got sick in Sicily on day one of my vacation because of how bad the air was. |
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| ▲ | bluGill a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tourists get the majority of the benefit because residents of paris are smoking which is makes clear air not really a benifiet for them. I thought the above needed a /s, but a check shows 30% of the people in France smoke. (I can't find city stastics) |
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| ▲ | stefs a day ago | parent [-] | | i kinda seem to remember that this is a bit misleading and the rates are surprisingly different than expected. i'm too lazy to check the sources right now, but gemini gives me a 15% daily smoker rate for paris, while it's ~30% for detroit, 21% for philadelphia, 10% for new york, 5% for L.A. |
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| ▲ | dwg465 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I mean it’s a “CNN Travel” article…of course it’s going to focus on Paris as a travel destination. |
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| ▲ | dismalaf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Paris has not escaped the wrath of the SUV, and a large part of the congestion cities across the world are seeing is solely down to cars becoming bigger. Europeans don't drive Suburbans. They drive crossovers that are, if anything, shorter than the equivalent sedan or wagon. |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 2 days ago | parent [-] | | So do Americans in many cites like Seattle. | | |
| ▲ | dismalaf 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Fair. When I'm in Canada I do see enough big trucks and SUVs though, versus Paris or Prague (the two places in Europe where I regularly visit/live) where the number is basically zero. |
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| ▲ | stingraycharles 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > But tourists visiting Paris for a week don’t get the majority of the benefit from cleaner air. You’re missing the point: tourists are good for the city. If Paris gets a reputation of being polluted, tourism will decline. |
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| ▲ | stackghost 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >But tourists visiting Paris for a week don’t get the majority of the benefit from cleaner air. First impressions matter, though. When you fly into e.g. New York and they pop the door open you get that whiff of exhaust fumes. The city reeks. Vancouver on the other hand it smells like the ocean. Any improvement of air quality does matter for tourists and residents. |
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| ▲ | dfxm12 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Cleaner air is still good for tourists & the article is part of the Travel section of this publication. |
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| ▲ | lefrenchy 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How does an SUV cause more congestion than a sedan? That seems untrue to me. |
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| ▲ | kibwen 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | One of the major problems with cars is the terrible lack of density. Per-occupant, a car occupies more space on the roadway than any other form of passenger transport. And as cars get larger, that lack of density gets even worse. There's only so much space on the road, so something has to give. | | |
| ▲ | efavdb 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | When I look at traffic in my city, I rarely see it caused by full packing. Rather throughout seems to be the issue. | | |
| ▲ | lukeschlather 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Throughput is directly proportional to the volume of cars, and SUVs have larger volume. Technically perhaps surface area, but there is a psychological effect to height. I believe people also give taller vehicles more space as a rule. | | |
| ▲ | marcosdumay 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Throughput in congestion is determined mostly by how quickly drivers react to the opportunity to move and how many points of attrition are in a path. Both of what are impacted by the number of cars and how well they break or accelerate, not by their size. There's space to claim large car cause attrition, but that's completely dependent of the local properties of the streets. | | |
| ▲ | kibwen 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The footprint of the car matters. When cars get 5% longer, the same number of people in cars takes 5% more roadway, which adds up quickly, because the difference between smoothly-flowing traffic and jammed traffic is a fragile equilibrium dominated by breakpoints. Furthermore, heavier cars accelerate and decelerate slower than lighter cars, which has a compounding effect on decreasing overall throughput. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill a day ago | parent [-] | | That isn't true. Most of the space a car takes is empty as you need long distances between cars. |
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| ▲ | lukeschlather 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That larger cars cause diminished throughput is pretty solidly demonstrated through a variety of modeling and real-world traffic analysis. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/365069344_How_the_r... |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | Schiendelman 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Have you ever tried to park an SUV versus parking a sedan? | | |
| ▲ | obsidianbases1 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Great point. Additionally, driving a small sedan myself, if there is a parking spot (not parallel, normal lot spot) in between two SUVs, there is a good chance that spot is useless, even in my small car. Just last night, I was parked perfectly (I had to stop and admire my work because what follows), but still had to squeeze out with my door undoubtedly touching the SUV, and it wasn't even a large size SUV. I really hope waymo takes of and makes it economical to stop owning a car, and reduce the necessity of parking lots | | |
| ▲ | consp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > there is a good chance that spot is useless, even in my small car. Totally off topic but I've seen two smarts side-by-side in one parking spot, on a right angle to the parking spot making exiting the spot easy. Now that's efficient. And they still were less parked on the road than any big SUV or worse. |
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| ▲ | magicalhippo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Here the large SUVs make everyone else drive slower in the city, because they're so big the driver has poor visibility and thinks they need several feet more than they do in clearance, and so drive almost in the middle of the road. Others then have to go real slow to not get dinged up on either side. | |
| ▲ | troupo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Here's a helpful comparison https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/opel-astra-1998-cou... | | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You have a fixed amount of space to put stuff. If the stuff gets larger, can you put more or less stuff in that space? So now we have at least the same number of people trying to put their stuff in that fixed size space, but their stuff got bigger, does that make it easier or harder for them to put their stuff in that space? Will they have to compete more or less for that space? Seems like a pretty obvious one to me. | |
| ▲ | calvinmorrison 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | fewer cars per foot, less visibility, etc? If there's a sedan in front of me I can see whats going on, if there's a UPS box truck, i cannot even see the light 150 feet away. |
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| ▲ | bluesounddirect 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I agree, CNN has always had a weird angle to its bias. I am by no means a FOX news nut . I really think a lot of american "news" now is similar to How The WWF ( World Wide Wrestling Federation/ World Wrestling Entertainment) isn't a Sport. CNN , FOX, MSNBC/MSNOW , Newsmax etc aren't news but unfunny entertainment. |