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| ▲ | scheme271 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the deeper question is whose standards and why should we consider them the standard? | | |
| ▲ | AdamN 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Some of them of course are invented whole cloth. British Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate. | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | RP isn't really a thing any more, except among some of the older aristocracy and Tories and a few legacy BBC Radio shows. Most people have settled into Estuary, which has split into a high/corporate/media Estuary-tinged dialect, and low street Estuary. The BBC has its own special neutral version. Fifty years ago the difference between upper class/BBC/RP and street English was almost hilariously obvious. Watch a BBC show from the 50s and 60s - even something like Dr Who - and everyone is speaking a unique RP dialect that doesn't exist any more. | | |
| ▲ | madaxe_again 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Idk. I’m in my early 40s, not a Tory, not aristocracy, and I speak with RP, as do many others I know. Maybe a product of schooling, but I wouldn’t say it’s dead. In media, you’re quite correct - it has become rare bar presenters who are now in their 80s or older. |
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| ▲ | Lio 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You say “needs to be learned” but that’s no more so than any other accent. We just grow up with it because it’s how our parents and the parents of our friends speak. If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a large variety of accents of which RP is one. | | |
| ▲ | Lio 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Not sure why this is controversial. RP is just an accent like any other now. I didn’t have lessons for it and I don’t know anyone else that did. It’s just how we speak. | | |
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| ▲ | rahimnathwani 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Received Pronunciation was invented" How so? | | |
| ▲ | herewulf a day ago | parent [-] | | It's not the natural evolution of a regional dialect coming to prominence but rather the conscious consensus of a geographically distributed social stratum. Interestingly, the sociolinguistic literature shows that such a consensus is strongest among an aspirationally upward-mobile social group rather than the already social elite. In other words: The aspirational middle class make a big effort to speak how they think the upper class speak in hopes of joining them one day. |
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| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's the thing with standards: there are so many of them to choose from. You don't have to follow them, but you do you should be ready to accept the consequences of your choice. | | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 2 days ago | parent [-] | | There are lots of standards, but some contradict one-another. In the area I grew up in, caring too much about useless aesthetic stuff like “elbows on the table” would have a social cost. |
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| ▲ | vitro 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe some of them may have had a purpose. With this one, if you were used to putting your elbows on the table and there were more people around, you just took up too much space and made it unpleasant for others around you. |
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| ▲ | rkomorn 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | When it comes to manners, I'd say seeing enough people fail to meet a standard means it's not a standard, at least. | | |
| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No, that's argumentum ad populum. Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids: - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them - the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless. - If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) - You are free to not comply to some rules, but always be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions. - What your friends are doing or not doing is not reason enough for you to change your behavior or choices. | | |
| ▲ | latexr 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them But not observing them does. There are standards no one in the world follows anymore. They may still “be there”, but are only used for mocking purposes. > If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes anyone else for not following a standard must be able to explain why it exists. “Because it’s rude” it’s not good enough, explain why it’s considered rude. | | |
| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't see anything in your responses that even remotely contradict or relate to what I said. Are you just looking for an argument here? | | |
| ▲ | technothrasher 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It seems like you are making a different point than the other posters. If the majority of a group does not follow an etiquette standard, it is reasonable to say that the group does not hold that standard. Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard, then that standard exists is true, but is more tangential to the other point that a rebuttal of it. | | |
| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard... Not quite. My original comment was in response to "I see people violating rule X anywhere, even though I was told it was 'wrong'". All I am saying is one shouldn't be basing their behavior solely on what they see others "getting away with". | | |
| ▲ | altmanaltman a day ago | parent [-] | | That might be true for things like laws, but manners and customs are not strictly enforced by any central authority, at least these days, but rather by how culture/generation changes. It is possible that if nobody follows the same etiquette anymore, it means it is outdated and no longer exists. That is the entire point of progress. At one point in time, it was considered bad etiquette to interact with people of color, but over time, society changed for the better. That etiquette literally doesn't exist anymore. That doesn't mean people are "getting away with" not following a "rule" these days. But rather customs/morals/etiquette are transitory and prone to changes, and one must understand what is and what isn't actual etiquette instead of just following all outdated "rules". That's also fundamentally different from something like a law, where the ethical thing to do is that you should still follow it even if others are "getting away" with it. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What is this, abuse? |
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| ▲ | WrongAssumption 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Appeals to public opinion are valid in situations where consensus is the determining factor for the validity of a statement, such as linguistic usage and definitions of words." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum | |
| ▲ | YeahThisIsMe 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard. | | |
| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You and I are using different meanings for standard. | | |
| ▲ | throwthrowuknow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | then it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 days ago | parent [-] | | And the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and social status. I had a friend who came from a working class culture where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances, like whether someone put milk in their tea before or after pouring it. Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant. Middle and upper class people had a completely different set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less obvious displays of wealth - which the working class aspirers were oblivious to. | | |
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| ▲ | thaumasiotes 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard. | | |
| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Most people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean metric doesn't exist. Standards are not absolutes. |
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| ▲ | f1shy 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is just great way to put it and explain. |
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