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| ▲ | latexr 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them But not observing them does. There are standards no one in the world follows anymore. They may still “be there”, but are only used for mocking purposes. > If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes anyone else for not following a standard must be able to explain why it exists. “Because it’s rude” it’s not good enough, explain why it’s considered rude. |
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| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't see anything in your responses that even remotely contradict or relate to what I said. Are you just looking for an argument here? | | |
| ▲ | technothrasher 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It seems like you are making a different point than the other posters. If the majority of a group does not follow an etiquette standard, it is reasonable to say that the group does not hold that standard. Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard, then that standard exists is true, but is more tangential to the other point that a rebuttal of it. | | |
| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard... Not quite. My original comment was in response to "I see people violating rule X anywhere, even though I was told it was 'wrong'". All I am saying is one shouldn't be basing their behavior solely on what they see others "getting away with". | | |
| ▲ | altmanaltman a day ago | parent [-] | | That might be true for things like laws, but manners and customs are not strictly enforced by any central authority, at least these days, but rather by how culture/generation changes. It is possible that if nobody follows the same etiquette anymore, it means it is outdated and no longer exists. That is the entire point of progress. At one point in time, it was considered bad etiquette to interact with people of color, but over time, society changed for the better. That etiquette literally doesn't exist anymore. That doesn't mean people are "getting away with" not following a "rule" these days. But rather customs/morals/etiquette are transitory and prone to changes, and one must understand what is and what isn't actual etiquette instead of just following all outdated "rules". That's also fundamentally different from something like a law, where the ethical thing to do is that you should still follow it even if others are "getting away" with it. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What is this, abuse? |
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| ▲ | WrongAssumption 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "Appeals to public opinion are valid in situations where consensus is the determining factor for the validity of a statement, such as linguistic usage and definitions of words." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum |
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| ▲ | YeahThisIsMe 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard. |
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| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You and I are using different meanings for standard. | | |
| ▲ | throwthrowuknow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | then it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 days ago | parent [-] | | And the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and social status. I had a friend who came from a working class culture where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances, like whether someone put milk in their tea before or after pouring it. Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant. Middle and upper class people had a completely different set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less obvious displays of wealth - which the working class aspirers were oblivious to. | | |
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| ▲ | thaumasiotes 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard. |
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| ▲ | rglullis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Most people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean metric doesn't exist. Standards are not absolutes. |
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| ▲ | f1shy 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| This is just great way to put it and explain. |
