| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 8 hours ago |
| > and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem So the only superiority is that it runs the apps most people want to run? And this is why geeks are always the “Less space than Nomad. No Wireless. Lame” types or the HN equivalent when talking about DropBox: “For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.” |
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| ▲ | dijit 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Most people want a web browser. Even Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is “Web only” on the lowest tier. |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | PC gaming revenue on its own is around $45 Billion a year and there are all sorts of vertical market software that only runs on Windows. But even if all most people want is browser, why go through the hassle of running Linux? I usually recommended a Windows PC to most people because on the low end, they are cheap, disposable, and if the one odd program they might want to run isn’t available, I didn’t have to hear about it. If they know what they want, I didn’t have a problem recommending an Air and now for a lot of use cases, a Neo. | | |
| ▲ | dijit 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I work in games (formerly AAA). Chicken and egg problem. Valve is making enough headway that game makers take Linux seriously. We’ll likely see a lot more native releases over time. (once the worry about anticheat subsides). | | |
| ▲ | p_ing 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why bother making native releases when Valve/Proton will take care of it? Who wants the headache of supporting another build and directly supporting N flavors of Linux distributions? When it comes to games, Linux has an OS/2 problem. | | |
| ▲ | lemagedurage 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Steam runtime already gives developers a single target rather than having to support different distros individually. If Steam Deck, the new Steam Machine etc take a significant part of market share, I think it will be more enticing for game developer to release a native version for Linux. Providing a native version should still be more robust and performant. | | |
| ▲ | p_ing 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > still be more robust Why? The only stable ABI on Linux is Win32. |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And still why should normal people go to Linux over Windows? Linux support is still not that great from OEMs and for the unwashed masses your local Best Buy or Apple Store. | | |
| ▲ | mrj 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Have you read the article? There's real frustration with Windows. It's so bad that my 15 year old, who only really uses his computer to launch Steam, asked me to help him install Linux. He had heard about Bazzite and already knew his gpu would be compatible. He gets about 20 fps more on Linux and can choose when updates are applied. There's no forced online login, ads in the OS or copilot prompts. His browser doesn't revert to Edge. He doesn't really want to care but Microsoft's decisions have made their main product into an annoyance. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | And people would be less frustrated with Linux? | | |
| ▲ | mrj 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, as I explained. He's happy with it. He doesn't care about the OS just wants it to launch programs like it's supposed to. | |
| ▲ | GTP 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Some people, myself included, are already less frustrated with Linux. Which means it is likely that other people would be less frustrated if they tried Linux. Not 100% of them, of course, but some for sure. |
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| ▲ | butterlesstoast 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ok | |
| ▲ | dijit 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ok |
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| ▲ | motbus3 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I believe this even without checking the numbers. That said, I now own a steam deck and I only buy games supported. There is a new game with no support? So sorry. Can't be done |
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| ▲ | bangaladore 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is “Web only” on the lowest tier. If you've ever used it before, you'd quickly come to the conclusion that web only Office is only useful for someone writing essays for school. The moment you need to do anything more complex than that, the document renders completely differently on web vs app-- not to mention there are tons of critical features that aren't even available on the web version. | | |
| ▲ | dijit 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Sorry, I think I didn’t make myself clear enough. I meant that Microsoft is intentionally removing their own moat. That the tools are awful is just the standard microsoft affair. (with some notable exceptions, which ironically include Excel). | |
| ▲ | NetMageSCW 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And you’d be making the same mistake as all those people that claim Windows is too awful to use for real work. Web Office is limited, but it is more than enough for the majority of business users. | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t do anything too “serious” as far as writing documents that Google Docs can’t handle - we use that at work instead of Office - is Word that much better than GSuite for most cases or is Office Web worse than GSuite? | | |
| ▲ | Arch-TK 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Some people have some bizarre obsession with having absolute and total control over the placement of every single last character in their document while simultaneously not caring about the fact that this placement is sometimes not reproducible and randomly becomes diseased. My most memorable MS Word experiences are all the times I accidentally put my document into a weird state and didn't notice something was wrong until I've spent 3 more hours on it, at which point I was forced to re-create the document by copy pasting text into an earlier copy. And the only reason I knew something was subtly wrong was because the weird VB extension I was required to use would stop working correctly. Basically this would happen when some random key element of the document had ended up with a very subtly different style. If I didn't have to worry about the VB extension breaking, I'd just have a document with some weird bug somewhere. If I wanted a professional looking document, I would use some modern LaTeX variant maybe with Pandoc to generate most of it from something more restricted like Markdown. If I wanted total control over the content of a page, I would use some kind of graphical publishing software with text and vector graphics. I have zero idea what kind of Stockholm syndrome you must have to think that Microsoft Office (or any other similar WYSIWYG editor for that matter) is power user software. It has lots of features, that's for sure. But the features form a Jenga tower. That makes it a toy. | |
| ▲ | esseph 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > is Word that much better than GSuite for most cases or is Office Web worse than GSuite? Excel is really The Thing. So many businesses and departments rely on it. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I believe that. When I was in graduate school in 1999-2001 (MBA) before I dropped out. I learned firsthand the beast that was Excel. |
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| ▲ | Gigachad 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who only uses the web browser exclusively. It’s true that most stuff is in the browser, but basically every user has a couple things that are native apps which don’t work on Linux. Wine has come a long way for gaming, but my experience is for regular programs, most stuff doesn’t work. Even the simple apps are usually critically broken. |
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| ▲ | seba_dos1 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But it still was lame and ultimately made the world a worse place; and mounting remote storage is convenient and often preferable to something like Dropbox for several reasons. The fact that these aren't what matters for gaining wide popularity doesn't make such statements false. |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In all fairness, he did later have this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27070138 | |
| ▲ | brailsafe 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > ultimately made the world a worse place I feel like people dramatically overestimate their impact on "the world" by way of making niche software choices or consumer products or whatever. | | |
| ▲ | Eisenstein 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | If you follow the reasoning that the iPod led to the iPhone which made mobile internet use dominant and common, you can also follow that line to social media and attention economies which many would argue have caused the world to be worse. But this is kind of like the 'great man' theory of history where you can also argue that the markets would have converged on this outcome regardless of what the specific device was that we attribute to it. | | |
| ▲ | seba_dos1 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I was more thinking about normalization of walled gardens in personal computing devices and resulting duopolisation of the market. Widely used mobile Internet, social networks, touchscreen smartphones were coming with or without Apple, and it's not like the carrier-dominated market was all flowers and butterflies otherwise, but ultimately it was Apple who used its market and cultural position to push non-interoperable stuff like iMessage, fight "jailbreaking" and "sideloading", gatekeep software availability etc. which defined the course of action in the industry for the next decades. These things aren't what made iPhones successful and it didn't have to be done this way. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | There was no “wall garden” with the iPod. In SJ’s “Thoughts on Music” that he posted on Apple’s front page in 2007, he said that less than 5% of users music came from iTunes. This was the same post he said he wouldn’t license Apple’s DRM. But if the music industry would license their music DRM free, the interoperability goals would be achieved an Apple would sell DRM free music. One of the major record labels and some independent labels took him up on it immediately. It took two years for the rest to come onboard. iMessage always supported SMS and now RCS. What more did you expect Apple to do? |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think we would have been stuck with BlackBerry/Windows CE/SideKick type devices. Even the then CEO of Google used BlackBerry devices years after Android came out as opposed to SJ who used the iPhone before it was released and after it was announced, saw that the screen was easily scratched and publicly did a press release that they were going to change it to use Gorilla Glass from plastic. |
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| ▲ | sonofhans 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The iPod made the world a worse place? I’m skeptical; I see very little bad about iPods. Do you think the quote what about the iPhone? | | |
| ▲ | seba_dos1 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | iPods are the main thing that allowed iPhone (the bigger brother of iPod Touch) to be successful. I'm reasonably convinced that without the iPod craze, Apple's phone wouldn't make such a big market impact, if they would release it at all. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | The iPod Touch was released after the iPhone. | | |
| ▲ | bombcar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The main reason I got an early iPhone was because why carry an iPod and another phone when I could carry one device. | |
| ▲ | seba_dos1 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A few months after. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | What’s funny is that there were two years worth of rumors about the “true video iPod” and people nailed the specs of the iPod Touch. But no one suspected the “iPhone” that had also been rumored would be basically the same thing |
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| ▲ | colordrops 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What a horrible take, nothing but a tautology. It only runs the apps most people want to use because it's installed on so many computers, so developers target it. Linux can run anything Windows can. It's the same hardware, and if it was a much more popular desktop you bet your life that banks and streaming companies and AAA game developers would target linux as a supported platform. Has nothing to do with the quality of Windows, only the install base, which was the original point. |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It doesn’t matter why it only runs apps most people want to use. As long as you don’t think a “quality” of something is that “it can do what I want it to do”. | | |
| ▲ | colordrops 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | As long as you think of "quality" as "something that is not quality". bad logic. There are many systems that are only usable because they are popular but everyone hates them and thinks they are garbage. Market capture doesn't equal quality, sorry, that's a horrible take. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | If I need to do a thing and a product I use can’t do it? Why should I buy it? Does Linux have the software support of Windows? The hardware support? So what argument could you give Joe Normal about how Linux is better than Windows ? | | |
| ▲ | colordrops 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's a fair argument as to why someone should use windows. What does that have to do with quality though? You are confusing two things. Whether you should use it or recommend it is not the same as whether it's good quality. |
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| ▲ | Sirental 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You do have to ask yourself why Windows has such a high market share. Chrome OS is Linux based but still managed to poke a deeper hole than much of us expected in the consumer space. Android is Linux based and practically annihilated Windows CE off the face of the earth. Mac OS has been competing fairly well with Windows despite being hardware exclusive. I very very very rarely see a Linux distribution in the wild being used on a PC/Laptop. When I do, it's usually being used by a nerd who knows their thing. I think the reason Windows is so successful is because it's stable, bulletproof and easy. You don't have to burn an ISO to a USB and boot from it, partition a disk and install it. You don't have to grep grub at any time. You rarely have to use PowerShell for much of anything at all, including device management, managing services and even tweaking the registry. The "desktop environment" is the operating system, not a seperate abstraction around it. There's no research required on what distro works best for you, what package manager is ideal, what file system to use, what window manager to use, what desktop environment to use. There's no messing with repositories either. No issues with drivers that require compiling from source, no marking an executable as "executable" through chmod. I like Linux, but the Linux community overestimate how usable it is outside of their meta, and underappreciate their own mental model of what a computer is and how it differs from the layman. Most people want to open their laptop, double click a browser and watch Family Guy funny moments on facebook.com without having to troubleshoot PulseAudio because it's suddenly gone super quiet. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | ChromeOS did not poke a hole in the consumer space. It’s the B2B of hardware where the user is not the buyer. To a first approximation, no one wants a ChromeOS based computer for their home anymore than they want to run Salesforce at home. It is cheap and from what I have heard, Google’s MDM software is top notch. Android “won” as pyrrhic of a victory as it is since Android manufacturers besides Samsung make very little profit and every one who has money (again to a first approximation) buys iPhones. It won because Google gave it away, shared ad revenue with OEMs and it bent over backwards to the carriers and Apple wouldn’t. And yes Linux would save OEMs maybe $30 on licensing Windows. But OEMs make mire than that on bundleware. | |
| ▲ | colordrops 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's so simple. It's because windows DID have a much better desktop experience in the past, for decades, and they built a trillion dollar company around it. It's no longer the clear winner though, and they are simply surfing the momentum of having an existing user base that doesn't want to relearn apps and UIs, apps and games that only work on windows due to the size of the user base, and general marketing and sales and existing corporate contracts. None of this has anything to do with the quality of the desktop of Linux or windows. If Linux had 75% market share I promise you all those things above would quickly become true for Linux as well. |
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| ▲ | rfrey 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| People loved the iPod. Users loved Dropbox. Nobody loves windows. |
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| ▲ | bigstrat2003 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I love Windows, or at least I used to before Windows 8. I think that it is a truly pleasant OS to use, and is my preference. I use Linux as my daily driver today, but it's because I'm a refuge from the anti-user thugs MS has done (ads in the OS being first and foremost among them), not because I don't like Windows. If they brought back Windows 7 security updates, I would switch back to it in a heartbeat. | | |
| ▲ | anonymars 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Same here. With Windows 11 I feel like, "look how they massacred my boy" There were so many things in previous versions of Windows that were done with thought and care. Probably the blogs helped make me appreciate it (especially Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing). Windows 11 feels like an insult created by people who hate Windows and never use it I really wish we could keep the modern underpinnings with a prior shell | | |
| ▲ | lp0_on_fire 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The start menu used to manifest instantly. The right click menu never once showed me “loading…” when I just want to click “properties” A not too overly flashy UI that made efficient use of your screen space. It didn’t used to by default shove “news and entertainment” bing suggestions. Nobody wants to open their browser after an update to be greeted by tabloid rags. The search used to work. You could find files instead of bing results. You could grep text files with the explorer search bar (across the network too) and it just worked. Good luck doing that today. | | |
| ▲ | anonymars an hour ago | parent [-] | | Right?! How is the Start Menu so unreliable? Search just worked. (It still works if you use ClassicShell / OpenShell). Now it's braindead; even if the start menu shows results, half the time if you click one, Explorer pops up and just sits there broken, contemplating its life choices that led it to this rock bottom |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Coffee drinkers "loved" Starbucks. EV advocates "loved" Tesla. The perception of something being good is not an indicator of quality in a post-industrial society, it mostly just reflects marketing efforts and other forms of artificial tastemaking. Today, people don't love the iPod or Dropbox. Both products became completely commoditized once consumers realized that there is actually nothing special about using MP3 files or hosted NFS. Windows is a commoditized OS, it's unapologetic post-desktop slopware. And it sells. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thats a little revisionist isn’t it? iPods and all music players started dying in popularity after the iPhone. Steve Jobs himself said “Dropbox is a feature not a product”. Dropbox is the same cost for 5TB of storage as GSuite + 5TB of storage or Office365 with 1TB each for 5 (6?) users. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai an hour ago | parent [-] | | Fatalist sure, but not revisionist. Commodification is a natural process for everything that isn't unique, iPods, EVs and Dropbox alike. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The iPod was never “commoditized”. It didn’t o market share to other cheaper “good enough” music players. It was “obsoleted” as technology moved forward. Saying the iPod was commoditized is like saying 8 track tape players were commoditized. |
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| ▲ | gambiting 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I like Windows. Windows 11 gets on my nerves a lot but fundamentally I think it's a great system if you're a software developer or if you play video games(and I do both). I also have to use MacOS as part of my work and I don't understand how anyone uses it daily, it's like it's made by someone who never actually has to use it themselves. But I imagine it's a matter of personal preference to an extent. | | |
| ▲ | phainopepla2 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What kind of software development do you do? I don't really mind Windows that much for non-development use, once you disable all the bloat. But for development... It seems obviously a distant third behind Linux and Mac, and I don't think I've ever heard any developer say otherwise. And I say this as someone who is forced to use it at work, so it's not out of ignorance (thank god for WSL). But that's why I ask what kind of development you do, because I suppose there are areas where Windows really is a good option. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am definitely not a Windows fan. But I was forced to use it for a year. I do mostly AWS stuff cloud + app dev. VSCode with WSL and Docker Desktop was fine. |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was forced to use Windows recently for a year between late 2023-2024. Windows itself is fine. It’s the hardware that sucks with it still being forced to be on x86. The heat, the bad battery life, the fan noise, etc. On the Mac side, either way I spent all of my day in VSCode and the browser - we use GSuite - Zoom and Slack. It wouldn’t make that much of a different either way. The only integrations I use between my work Mac and my personal Apple life are my iPad for a second screen, shared subset of passwords. I have a separate Apple Account for my work computer and I share work related passwords. |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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