Just out of curiosity, could you (or anyone else) give a couple of examples of what you would consider "great role models for real men"? Or "good role models for well-adapted men", if you'd rather use less inflammatory language.

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gassi 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fred Rogers, Terry Crews, Lin Manuel Miranda, Henry Cavill, John Cena, Steve Irwin and Dave Grohl to name a few.

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boca_honey 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Fred Rogers advised François Clemmons, an openly gay cast member, to remain closeted and even suggested he marry a woman to protect the show's viability.[1]

Terry Crews? Porn addict. [2]

Lin Manuel Miranda "blindly asks BIPOC performers to act in a piece detailing historical events benefiting their oppressors." [3]

Henry Cavill undermined the #MeToo movement saying he feared being called a "rapist" if he pursued women. [4]

John Cena buries talent... used his backstage influence to undermine the momentum of new stars (remember The Nexus in 2010, CM Punk etc) [5]

Steve Irwin fed a crocodille while holding his month-old son, putting him in danger. [6]

Dave Grohl? Chronic infidelity. [7]

All these men are way better than me, for sure. But you can see how these arguments against Chuck Norris are a slippery slope:

> The homophobia? The racism? The infidelity? The conspiracy theories?

You're cherry-picking virtues from people aligned with your politics and ignoring the good things your perceived "adversaries" have.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/04/30/847315345/officer-clemmons-mi...

[2] https://www.addictioncenter.com/community/terry-crews-pornog...

[3] https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/12/9/unpop-opinion-c...

[4] https://culturess.com/2018/07/13/henry-cavill-missed-point-m...

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQr5ZD6fr0g&t=3s

[6] https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47343688

[7] https://www.gutinstinctmedia.com/latest-articles/a-rockstar-...

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cthalupa 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think Cavill has a fair point - I generally support MeToo, think it was very important, but I can understand how being a fairly big name in Hollywood can result in hesitation around pursuing women. Especially now that he's got a lot of power for a whole franchise, with the Warhammer 40k stuff.

Steve Irwin I don't think what he did was a particularly big deal with the kid.

I don't really like celebrities as role models though. They have to have public personas as a matter of course. I would instead try to point to specific behaviors from real people. I also don't think people have to be perfect. But I do think there are some deal breakers that would mean I would never point my kids towards them as a role model. Racism and homophobia are among those things. I think believing that whole classifications of people are lesser is disqualifying.

	▲	boca_honey 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Oh I think all of those guys have fair points. I was trying to illustrate how you could make a hero or a villain out of anybody if you cherry pick incidents, decisions or opinions. Just like the parent comment was trying to do with Chuck Norris. (Which was probably way worse than any of these examples)

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jl6 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ironically, the very concept of a “real man” is founded on the idea that a man should be defined by stereotypes rather than by sex, which puts manosphere enthusiasts and gender enthusiasts in closer epistemological proximity than either would care to admit.

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boca_honey 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I saw this coming, that's why I made this point, which you ignored:

> Could you give a couple of examples of what you would consider > "good role models for well-adapted men" ?

I'm actually curious.

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jl6 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Amy Coney Barrett.

Supreme court judge, mother of 7, still finds time to go to the gym.

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boca_honey 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I meant male role models for men (I'm sure you could find one). Not every man aspires to be the mother of 7 and go to the gym. (Because: remember that gyms are classist by design. [1])

But maybe lets talk about how Amy got called out by The Human Rights Campaign and 185 LGBTQ organizations for her "disturbingly anti-LGBTQ past writings, rhetoric and association with extremist groups." [2]

Or how about when The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights described her record as "fundamentally cruel," arguing she frequently sides with corporations over individuals and shows hostility toward established precedents like the Affordable Care Act.

At least Chuck Norris had no real impact on policy with his bigotry.

[1] https://www.leeboyce.com/truth-the-fitness-life-is-a-relativ...

[2] https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/the-human-rights-campaign...

[3] https://civilrights.org/resource/oppose-the-confirmation-of-...

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jl6 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Why does a role model for a man have to be a man? Besides, she's an exceptionally good role model even for traditionalist views of what makes a man, by virtue of being so accomplished in her career and still making time for family and health. Her record poses the question: what's your excuse? Men who are all-in on hyperfocus should wither before her.

Sure, there are people that hate her. Her own patron, our Dear Leader, probably hates her when she rules against his interests. All the more reason to respect her.

	▲	boca_honey 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Sure, a woman can be a role model for a man. Just out of curiosity, could you think of one man that could also be a role model for men and women?

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4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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