| ▲ | terminalshort 5 hours ago |
| Affordable housing is the only type of housing that will ever be built. Builders aren't so stupid as to build products that their customers can't buy. Government intervention is not needed. |
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| ▲ | slg 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I'm not sure if you're intentionally changing the definition of "affordable housing" in an attempt to make the desire for it seem silly or if you genuinely don't know how the term is typically used. But what you're describing is generally referred to as "market-rate housing" and not "affordable housing". |
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| ▲ | cuuupid 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Affordable housing = housing that regular people can afford The only silly thing here is that "low income housing" got rebranded as "affordable housing" and absolutely everything else got rebranded as "luxury homes" for political reasons. "Market-rate housing" is even sillier given that it is literally the opposite of what "affordable housing" policies dictate | | |
| ▲ | slg 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not going to debate what the definitions should be, I'll just say I don't think it is productive to join an existing conversation using terms with different definitions than everyone else uses. Defining all housing as inherently "affordable" makes the term meaningless and even if you disagree with the motivations behind the desire for "affordable housing", at least the term has meaning in the way it's typically used. | | |
| ▲ | cuuupid 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You are quite literally debating what the definition should be, because this is _not_ the existing definition of affordable housing, it is legally what OP is saying. "Affordable housing" is just when the household spends <= 30% of gross income on housing related costs. This is the definition used by the HUD and the same definition applied in policymaking. What >you< are referring to and what it is conflated with by progressive policymakers is "low income housing" which imposes an AMI based restriction on the resident's income. This in turn means that 30% of their income is much lower and restricts the sticker price of the home. In recent years, most 'affordable housing' policy has been advanced by progressives, who use that term for marketing purposes, whereas the actual policy primarily relates to 'low income housing' or even 'very low income housing.' This does not mean 'affordable housing' = 'low income housing', it just means the term 'affordable housing' is used in the title and the actual measures advanced are related to AMI and 'low income housing.' | | |
| ▲ | slg 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those definitions aren't in conflict. The "progressive" definition is just the applied version of the "HUD" definition scaled to local income levels. | | |
| ▲ | cuuupid 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is no "progressive" definition, income level is not at all part of the definition. Per the universal legal definition of 'affordable housing,' if a home costs $1B but is occupied by Elon Musk, it would still be affordable because it is less than 30% of his gross income. When you are dealing with income levels it is universally called 'low income housing,' and the HUD definition is already scaled to local income levels, the 'A' in AMI stands for 'Area.' You are conflating marketing ('we need more affordable housing!') with policy ('low income housing') | | |
| ▲ | slg 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There is no "progressive" definition You seemed to disagree with that in your prior post, but I’m glad we can now agree that there is no point debating this then. |
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| ▲ | barry-cotter 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is productive to decline to use propaganda terms. If, every time someone says they support affirmative action they are asked if they support having higher standards for Asian applicants to medical school than for white applicants that’s good because forcing people to defend their support of racist policies reduces support for them. By the same token pointing out that affordable housing doesn’t mean housing people can afford, it means politician allocated housing paid for by the general taxpayer, reduces support. Reducing support for bad things is good. | | |
| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Its also helpful to know that there is a specific (US) program called "affordable housing" that subsidizes rents for low income people. The economic effect of that program is to increase rents (but not home prices). This especially hits the working poor who make just a bit too much to have subsidized rents. |
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| ▲ | jrflowers 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like this reasoning. If there exists a person or organization that can afford to buy a thing then it is an affordable thing. Now this might sound like a tautology but that’s only because it is |
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| ▲ | ms_menardi 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| And yet, gentrification. |
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| ▲ | triceratops 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | God forbid bad parts of town ever get good. | | |
| ▲ | 7speter 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You mean make the non white parts white, right? | | |
| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Can you guess what the #1 source of wealth increase in the AA community has been over the last 20 years? That's right, grandma's house...guess where she lived. |
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| ▲ | KPGv2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's not what gentrification is. Relevant to this article, I lived through the gentrification of large parts of Austin in the early 00s. What happened was that good housing full of artists and musicians and other self-employed creatives began gentrifying, driving up property values, which drove up property taxes, which became unaffordable to the existing residents (who had owned their homes for a long time). Many (actually, most) of these artists had to sell and leave. They often left for other cities. But hey at least the good houses everyone liked all got torn down to be replaced by McMansions for the influx of techbros. Austin still has that slogan, "Keep Austin Weird." It failed. Austin isn't weird anymore. The University of Texas still is responsible for a lot of great stuff about Austin, but huge chunks of the city are just boring these days. There's certainly much less interesting culture happening. It's been airbnbified. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My interpretation of your comment: The existing residents (artists) made money by selling their appreciated houses. Those who could afford to remain were now in areas with less crime and poverty. The new residents spent a ton of money to live in a place they themselves culturally diminished. We should re-evaluate the winners and losers here. | |
| ▲ | FarmerPotato 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Let's talk about the East Side. https://www.austinmonthly.com/in-photos-what-gentrification-... I don't think many home owners got a price for their land that allowed them to buy a similar house elsewhere. The world is far from an ideal model where what you get is what you deserve. Note the history of the East Side power plant, which depressed property prices. Ditto, I-35 construction plans. The article says the plant will become a park now. After the new developers locked in purchases. | |
| ▲ | mmooss 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > good housing full of artists and musicians and other self-employed creatives It looks like - it might not be what you mean, but it looks like - you're saying 'good housing' is housing that has "artists and musicians and other self-employed creatives", as opposed to poor working people. | | |
| ▲ | JuniperMesos 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Many artists and self-employed creatives are themselves poor working people - making art is work (and so is marketing it to potential customers), and most artists are not lucky or successful enough to become wealthy doing it. But yes, I think there is a sense in which people who are driven to create have some kind of ineffable, cultural capital that people without this drive do not have. So a neighborhood that is full of artists is more interesting, and therefore more valuable to spend time in, than one that isn't. | | |
| ▲ | FarmerPotato 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | See the photo in the above East Side article. In the old neighborhood, people talked to the photographer because the front yards didn't have privacy fences. |
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| ▲ | terminalshort 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My heart breaks for those poor people whose houses became worth multiple times what they paid for them. A true tragedy. I would be devastated if my house became so valuable that the property taxes were more than I could afford. |
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| ▲ | mmooss 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Good for whom? If it's good for the residents, that's great. If it's bad for the residents, who get driven out, but good for some developers and outside rich people - that's what gentrification is. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Unless all of the housing is owned by non-residents prior to gentrification, some residents always benefit from their neighborhood going upscale. Either through increased home values, allowing them to sell and improve their lives. Or because it's now a more pleasant area to live in. Even renters in gentrifying areas may profit if housing construction outpaces population growth. Yes, they may have to move, but also the places they move to on their current budget may be nicer - because the people who can afford better have moved too. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > increased home values, allowing them to sell and improve their lives That also raises property taxes, making the neighborhood unaffordable and driving them out. > it's now a more pleasant area to live in. For new wealthy residents. People who have spent lifetimes there don't want everything to change and have their communities destroyed. > Yes, they may have to move, but also the places they move to on their current budget may be nicer - because the people who can afford better have moved too. These are theoretical and very general averages. The actual individuals often do not benefit. Being forced to move is not a mere inconvenience to your theory. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The alternative: new housing doesn't get built. Existing housing - including the "bad" neighborhood that isn't redeveloped for fear of "gentrification" - gets bid up to the moon. People who can't afford rent end up moving anyway and commuting from very far away, if they're lucky. Or they end up on the streets, if they aren't so lucky. That isn't theoretical. I just described the SF Bay Area. |
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| ▲ | 7speter 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | When people in NYC are driven out of their neighborhoods because of gentrification, they generally move down south. There isn’t some magical part of town that they can afford with their “current budget” |
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