| ▲ | nemomarx 7 hours ago |
| Good news - experimental verification of the law of supply and demand! I'm sure the analysis is welcome though and I hope policy makers try to learn from this. We could densify most american cities quite a lot more. |
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| ▲ | kristopolous 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| No it's not. It's 2 cherry picked data points with a sample size of 1 of a complex system with multiple confounding factors such as a pandemic You can look at other neighborhoods such as palms in Los Angeles, which has the most aggressive housing build out in all of California. Median rent has increased - sometimes more housing can create more demand |
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| ▲ | mactrey 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Did rents in Palms go up because they built housing or because it's a great location in a city with increasing rent almost everywhere? Or in other words, is there any econometric evidence that building housing increased rents in Palms, or could we be confusing correlation with causation? | | |
| ▲ | kristopolous 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Exactly. You can't just look at two data points in a system with hundreds of confounding variables, many of them unquantifiable and say "aha! This simple linear equation of supply and demand, that they teach in middle school, is correct!" That's not science, it's dogmatism |
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| ▲ | amelius 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What if the people in power don't want prices to go down? |
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| ▲ | cg5280 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem isn’t the powers that be. A lot of regular homeowners fight new developments tooth and nail. And many blue states unfortunately give them a lot of tools to do so. | | |
| ▲ | epistasis 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People want to blame the 1% for massive wealth ineqality, but when it comes to unaffordable housing, a basic necessity of life, the villain is actually about 30% of the population that is rich enough to own homes, act like rentiers, and block access to neighborhoods and opportunities. The greatest inequality difference is that between those with housing assets and those without. Yes the 1% are a problem but they are not the reason that young people can no longer afford housing without generational wealth, that's all due to the seemingly normal guy that's enforcing a class system based on home ownership versus non-ownership. | | |
| ▲ | shimman 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think the majority of the electorate very much blame the people you're talking about. Who do you think progressives and MAGA refer to when talking about neoliberals? They're talking about the corporate class; those that care more about money but willing to play up useless culture war issues that impact small amounts of people. |
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| ▲ | solid_fuel 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A lot of regular homeowners fight new developments tooth and nail. In a system where those with more capitol have more power, homeowners are the powers that be. They're more likely to vote and have more money for discretionary spending - like donating to politicians. | | |
| ▲ | calvinmorrison 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | People have been steered for decades into using their home as a vehicle for retirement. Of course they want to protecet it. | | |
| ▲ | solid_fuel 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not blaming individual homeowners, there are very strong incentives for treating homes like retirement investments. It's an issue of policy, but we do have to address that it is also causing rent to rise and contributing to the homelessness crisis. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A lot of regular homeowners fight new developments Which is self interested. The paradox is renters being turned against their own interests by large landlords pitching anti-gentrification. | |
| ▲ | lovecg 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don’t know why this is being downvoted, that’s exactly right. One needs only to attend a local city meeting about any smallest step towards more development to see how the voters think. |
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| ▲ | TulliusCicero 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's typically local residents who fight this. There's a "fuck you, got mine" tendency to pull up the ladder once you've made it. | | |
| ▲ | CharlieDigital 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is more complicated than that. A few years back when my youngest entered 1st grade, I attended some meetings where the superintendent talked about school expansions in the pipeline due to confirmed property development projects. Namely, when new housing is added, there are infrastructure considerations and corresponding expenses that translate to higher taxes. Civil planners have formulas for how much the student population will grow based on the housing density/type. Schools built on parcels based on 1970's population now have to expand to fit more students or the township has to find and acquire new land to build a new school. That requires raising taxes for bonds. A new school is several million dollars and then hiring staff. NJ has a legal limit of 25:1 in elementary. Add 100 students and you add at least 4 teachers that have to be supported by taxpayers. Expand the lunchroom, build a new gym, purchase new computers, all the ways up the chain for the next 12 years. If you ever look at your municipal tax bill, you will find that education is going to be the biggest expense by far. On top of that, roads may need to be widened. New roads have to be built and maintained. Municipal staff may need to increase. Some services may actually benefit from economies of scale (waste collection). Most will not. Imagine you bought a house in 1970 (i.e. my development) and you were paying $1000 annual property taxes. Now your property taxes are $12000 because of the increased spend on infrastructure and increased assessed value. You're a retiree and you've paid taxes for 2 or 3 generations of students. You live on a fixed income and your property taxes are a higher and higher proportion of your income. What do you do? Mortgage the house to pay taxes to fund more growth? The problem is exacerbated because obviously people want to go where the good schools are, where it's low crime, good infra, easy access to transportation. That drives demand and puts pressure on services while also raising taxes to pay to fund municipal bonds for growth. End of the day, my personal belief is that housing is a right. But I can also see why middle class folks, retirees end up pushing back when they get the bill in the form of increased property taxes. I've lived in my house 10 years now and my taxes have gone up ~$3500 in that time. Every school in the township had to expand to meet population growth with the additional units. Sure, my home value went up as well, but I can't cash that out. I can't imagine how it feels for retirees that are living in a family home here. | | |
| ▲ | williadc 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is a really well-thought out comment, and I agree with just about everything in it. One comment I'd like to call out for additional consideration is the comment on retirees being priced out due to rising property taxes. In my experience, most retirees have more rooms/land than they can make productive use of. I feel that there should be some pressure for them to sell that property to families who can use it more productively. That's the stick, but I feel there needs to be a carrot, where builders are constructing homes that these retirees will be drawn to. There are retirement communities in the southern US like "The Villages" https://www.thevillages.com/, but as the population here ages, we need to build these everywhere so retirees can move into the communities that meet their needs without being forced to leave their cities. | | |
| ▲ | CharlieDigital 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I feel that there should be some pressure for them to sell that property to families who can use it more productively.
I agree to extents. One lives in NY/NJ/CT because this is a big finance and pharma hub and it makes sense to live here while one works and eventually leave when that resource is no longer necessary.But there's nuance here, too: families. My wife's side is a big Italian family. Everyone's here. What do you do if your grand kids are all here? How do you support your adult kids and help them achieve financial security? Or leave and secure your own? Neither is an easy choice. > There are retirement communities...
There are here as well. The reason they work here, as far as I understand it, is that they count towards "affordable housing" units that are mandated by state law here in NJ. But I put that in quotes because these units in 55+ communities are often honestly still quite expensive, especially if you've already paid off your mortgage decades ago. |
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| ▲ | jltsiren 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The real issue seems to be the top-heavy tax system that forces local governments to rely on property taxes. A local income tax would make them more capable of building and maintaining infrastructure, but that would require lowering taxes at higher levels. (Income taxes are superior to wealth taxes in the sense that income tends to correlate better with the ability to pay tax.) If the demand for housing is high, zoning fees can also be used to make developers pay for the infrastructure upfront. If done properly, their impact on housing costs should be minimal, as they mostly extract some of the added value created by the zoning from the landowner. | | |
| ▲ | CharlieDigital 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If the demand for housing is high, zoning fees can also be used to make developers pay for the infrastructure upfront...
It's not that simple because these often end up as legal battles and in some cases, there are laws already on the books at the state and municipal level that would have to be changed.The developer for sure does not want to build a school and even if they build the school, they are not going to be paying for the teachers that are going to need to support the increased student body for every decade into the future; that's on the taxpayers. | | |
| ▲ | jltsiren 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The underlying assumption is that laws will be changed when necessary. If it's not possible to do that, most issues probably can't be fixed. More fundamentally, this is related to the principle of subsidiarity that is occasionally popular in the EU. Everything the government does should be done by the lowest level that can reasonably do it. And to enable that, local and state governments should have sufficiently wide tax bases. | | |
| ▲ | CharlieDigital 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Laws are voted on by the people. And if the municipal elections are scoped to current residents, they will vote to not expand in almost every case. At the state level, we have housing laws that mandate ratios of affordable housing. Many townships faught this in court (and lost) because schools and infrastructure are capital projects. Bonds are secured today against some future tax base. Don't forget that developers and investors are voters too (and lobbyists) who are going to vote against the municipalities. My point: it is a nuanced situation and not as simple as "Got mine FU" or "just build more". Build where? How do you pay for it fairly? | | |
| ▲ | jltsiren 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | People often vote to support new housing, as long as the entire system works reasonably well. My solution was to widen the tax base to make the system work better. The incentives around property taxes do not support significant new construction. If housing becomes more affordable, tax revenue per capita goes down, while local government spending stays the same or increases. Local governments should therefore not rely too much on property taxes. Income taxes, on the other hand, are good. You are taxing things you want to grow, and you get more tax revenue when your policies are good to the people. Local governments might want to collect more income taxes and less property taxes. When the demand for housing is high, zoning creates significant windfall to the landowner. Some of this windfall can be taxed to support infrastructure construction. |
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| ▲ | slyall 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Except you get exactly the same opposition in places where schools are funded by a higher level of government and if anything you taxes will go down because they are now spread across more households. | | |
| ▲ | CharlieDigital 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I can't answer for different states and municipalities, but I know about mine and NJ based on how we had to expand every school in the district over the last 10 years. These are big capital expenses. My property taxes have never gone down, even as my township has expanded. Part of this is that taxes are calculated on assessed value. Where I'm at, assessed value is a combination of lot size + structural improvement. Tax bill is assessed value * rate. Assessments have never gone down. The more people want to move here, the more values go up, the more capital projects need to be undertaken before new tax payers are contributing. It may take years to build a new development, but the multi-million dollar budget to expand the school and staff up teachers has to happen in tandem, before the new tax base exists. My lot is from the 70's. It's huge. New lots are significantly smaller. Townhouses and apartments are very dense. New development does not yield savings in taxes in practice unless it is commercial development. A big piece of farmland contributes taxes, but requires little in services. Convert that 50 acres into 50 units and now you need much more services and infrastructure compared to the 50 acre farm. You underestimate just how much schools and teachers cost. Those 50 units might add 50-100 students. Capital projects start even before the units finish to prevent overcrowded schools. Contracts are signed for garbage and snow removal if 5 of those units are occupied or 50. |
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| ▲ | lelandfe 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's just as much "change is scary" and "I like this as it is." It's a very human reaction. | | |
| ▲ | pclowes 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I dont think its just that. Nimbys also see: - many new building being very ugly (side note: ugly buildings no matter how green get torn down and are this not as green as building that are beautiful) - increasing density bringing increased crime - increased density actually turning out to be less efficient on a per capita tax basis (this is always wild to me, cities should be spending much less per capita than rural areas but arent) |
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| ▲ | dmix 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They are the ones who show up at local political fundraising galas and constantly report local issues influencing municipal/state priorities. Although it's not just NIMBY. There's a million rules about building housing and developing land from zoning, environmental, indigenous, or social ends. Which are arguably luxury self-benefiting priorities for people who already own houses. Plus all the activists who think the government can both make development extremely expensive via endless rules while affording to fund mass government housing at the same time. |
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| ▲ | pibaker 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Over 60% of Americans are homeowners. In any functioning democracy, they ought to be the people in power. | | | |
| ▲ | gknapp 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, it's easy! Just get the majority of voters to hate each other enough that it's a moral boundary to vote together on any law, effectively limiting any meaningful change. | |
| ▲ | BurningFrog 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | After a few decades in California, I'm pretty sure there are no "people in power". There are a lot of people with some power, which they use as they see fit. It all adds up to marginal and pseudo-random changes, as the state drifts toward... wherever it's going. | |
| ▲ | lo_zamoyski 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Trump explicitly said he wants to keep prices high [0]. This is the problem with a culture that views housing not as a need or a home, but as an investment. Pathological. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-says-he-wa... |
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| ▲ | pottertheotter 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I just hope that people remember this is just one factor affecting quality of life and making a city work. "Density at all costs" ignores a huge set of tradeoffs that are equally as damaging to a city. Things such as urban form, street experience, long-term adaptability, integration with existing fabric, economic resilience, etc. These are the things that make a city work in the long term. I’m a big proponent of building more housing. But a lot of it is being doing in very short sided ways that lead to huge externalities. |
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| ▲ | CyberDildonics 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Things such as urban form, street experience, long-term adaptability, integration with existing fabric, economic resilience, etc. I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean as a negative to people being able to walk around their neighborhood for essentials. It sounds like a classic vague "what about culture" argument that can't be explained. |
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| ▲ | mountainriver 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We could but it’s not always just “good” to make things dense. My hometown has had a huge push to add more housing to make things more affordable. What happened? Rents went down for a couple years then right back up. Except now the city has a bunch of more soulless condos and is horribly congested. Sometimes preserving things and keeping them nice and simple even if it’s costs a bit of a premium is better. |
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| ▲ | orangecat 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Rents went down for a couple years then right back up. Except now the city has a bunch of more soulless condos and is horribly congested. So there were a bunch of people who wanted to live there and now can. | | | |
| ▲ | ajross 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > now the city has a bunch of more soulless condos and is horribly congested The first bit is a taste thing; obviously lots of people view modern sprawl as "soulless" too. But the latter point is just plain wrong. Dense housing IMPROVES traffic congestion and shortens commutes, always, everywhere, markedly. And it's for a bleedingly obvious reason: pack people in closer together and they don't have to travel as far to get where they're going. QED. What you're imagining is some kind of fantasy hometown, which never increased in population and whose economy never developed. I mean, it's true. Forgotten ghost towns have very little traffic and quirky soulful architecture, c.f. Detroit. Everyone agrees that's a bad thing, though. | |
| ▲ | CyberDildonics 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | more soulless condos If you want soul move to New Orleans. Meanwhile people need comfortable places to live that don't make them indentured servants for the rest of their lives. I'll take a neighborhood with walkability and density over an old drafty brick building with no grocery stores any day. |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Developers not recouping their investment will discourage less housing in Austin in the future and it will become expensive again. A lot of our current housing shortages are from the build up in 2008 and an implosion of the entire industry (so that crafts people did not really exist for the next need for housing). |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Developers not recouping their investment Last time I did the back-of-the-envelope math, financing permitting delays in San Francisco added 10% to the cost of new housing [1]. (Note: not the cost of permitting. Just the cost of financing the delay.) This is deadweight loss that everyone in the transaction wins from eliminating. One could absolutely see lower prices and higher developer margins if this waste were cut. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38664780 | | |
| ▲ | strbean 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > everyone in the transaction wins Nobody ever thinks of the poor banks! | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Nobody ever thinks of the poor banks! I thought about that. But a bank would rather lend in lots of high-confidence, low-duration deals than a small number of high-margin deals. The only people who lose when housing is built are incoment landowners. Because prices go down. | |
| ▲ | lo_zamoyski 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Usury-as-a-Service. | | |
| ▲ | pclowes 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | At scale banks only win as a facilitator of economic growth.
As the adage goes they can only 3-6-3 if someone is making at least 7. For the everyman banks not winning is catastrophic. | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's always been a service. |
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| ▲ | nemomarx 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They can recoup the investment with volume (especially apartments) I would think? Sell 10 houses at 2 million each or 30 at 1 million each or however it breaks down. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Their land, labor, and material costs aren’t trivial. If thy were pulling a 10-20% margin before, how will increasing volume (which increases costs) make it up? | | |
| ▲ | bryan_w 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | They reinvest that generous 10% to buy more tools and hire more talent to build 10x as many homes at 2%. Seems pretty straightforward to me | | |
| ▲ | estearum 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | you should go into real estate development and make a fortune while solving a serious social problem for your country! | |
| ▲ | pixl97 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Taking on those liabilities is very risky when the next downturn happens and you're stuck with inventory. |
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| ▲ | atomicnumber3 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So, do we just need to nationalize housing construction? If the free market apparently just can't handle it? | | |
| ▲ | matheweis 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not a free market construction issue at all, it’s a regulatory zoning and permitting issue. Read the article and the peer comments here; Austin’s boom came about from reducing regulatory constraints. Nationally remove the artificial restrictions and the supply side will fix itself. | | |
| ▲ | shimman 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Seems like a free market issue, any profit resulting from development is a free market issue. Your profit margins mean worse quality housing for people, and we can see what actual public housing programs look like with Singapore and Vienna where rents can typically cost less than 20% of median salaries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVuCZMLeWko As renown corporate welfare recipient Bezos would say: "your margin is [our] opportunity." If the only thing stopping development is that rich developers want to make more money, then maybe we should get rid of the rich developers and let the public decide what to build. It couldn't be worse and it'd be 20-60% cheaper too. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > actual public housing programs look like with Singapore and Vienna where rents can typically cost less than 20% of median salaries It could work, but both Singapore and Austria have less than 10 million people amd have a residency system where you just can't come in from the outside and get your subsidized housing in Vienna or Singapore. Singapore doesn't extend subsidized housing to its foreign residents, even permanent residents, and they make up 40% of the population! Vienna is a bit better, as it applies it to all EU citizens who are resident in Austria, but you have to have lived at the same address there for 2 years, you just can't come in and claim one. |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Did Austin really have any constraints holding it back? It’s still Texas. People still look at Houston as the canonical example of a city with no artificial constraints. |
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| ▲ | 0_____0 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Public housing projects were and sort of still are a thing. Glass Amendment limits the number of units that can be produced but most areas are well below those limits and the larger issue is that there's no budget or political willpower for social housing projects right now. | | |
| ▲ | fragmede 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | There wasn't, but given the housing market right now, I don't know that there isn't. | | |
| ▲ | 0_____0 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Most blue metros in the US have a bad combination of high labor costs/low labor availability, high regulatory burden, wealthy conservative inhabitants who oppose construction, and working class people who are convinced that construction is gentrification. I've been racking my brain trying ti figure out what it looks like for US cities to pull out of the housing crisis, and I think it's either going to take about a generation, or there will be some catastrophic event (Great Depression II, WWIII) that changes the political landscape so drastically that nobody can really oppose housing anymore. |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe? Obviously boom bust cycles that come from a free market are not very efficient. | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We already have that. They're called "housing projects". |
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| ▲ | nzeid 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What evidence is there that developers won't break even or profit? The demand is clearly there, it's a seller's market. | | |
| ▲ | pixl97 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not so much any longer. The sales tap really turned off a while back and prices have been dropping a while here in Austin. |
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| ▲ | postflopclarity 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | just because rents fell doesn't mean developers couldn't recoup their investment. 2008 was completely different. | |
| ▲ | standardUser 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a balancing act. Build too much and developers make less money. Build too little and poverty and homelessness shoot up. Which side do you want to err on? |
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