| ▲ | slg 13 hours ago |
| >you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. This is very much not what "software-defined vehicle" means which itself is very much not the same thing as EVs. It's possible to criticize the explotative business practices you mentioned (or bad UI practices like moving everything to a touchscreen instead of physical buttons) without linking them to other issues that have no real relation beyond falling under the general category of "technology". At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. These two things can be true without endorsing automakers who charge and extra fee to activate the seat warmers that already exist in the vehicle. |
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| ▲ | metaphor 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's all motherhood and apple pie, but I'm sorry: the reality that we live in and incentives at play are such that if a capability can be exploited, then it will be exploited to the detriment of the consumer. Full stop. |
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| ▲ | slg 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's interesting how many complaints I see on HN that are framed as if they're complaints about a specific piece of technology when they are really complaints about capitalism. I'm all ears if you want to criticize our entire economic system, but I think it's silly to have that conversation specifically in the context of car software rather than at a societal level. | | |
| ▲ | chii 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > when they are really complaints about capitalism it's not a complaint about capitalism. It's a complaint about asymmetric bargaining power in the seller/buyer relationship. That's not inherent in capitalism. It's inherent in an anti-competitive market. The failure is in gov't making sure there's sufficient regulation to prevent monopolistic practises. | | |
| ▲ | panick21_ 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Perfect symmetry in bargaining power is systematically impossible. Not having perfect symmetry does not mean its anti-competitive. The facts are, most people don't mind software in their car an like live-updates. And nothing about software in cars or cars is monopolistic in any way. | |
| ▲ | sReinwald 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "It's not a complaint about water. It's a complaint about the wetness." If capitalism requires constant vigilant government intervention to prevent monopolistic practices, anti-competitive markets, and asymmetric bargaining power, then it seems to me that this is absolutely a complaint about capitalism. If anything, your comment just makes the indictment more damning. | | |
| ▲ | chii 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | i'd rather have the gov't be vigilant, than to have the gov't be the one monopolistic dictator. None of those problems of monopoly are inherent in capitalism - they exist in one form or another under a different market style (that of a command economy). It just appears different. |
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| ▲ | mynameisash 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The failure is in gov't making sure there's sufficient regulation to prevent monopolistic practises. This may not be a problem inherent to capitalism, but it certainly is a problem caused by the capitalism we currently have (by which I'm specifically referring to the US, but it may apply more broadly elsewhere). And the government's failure to adequately regulate the market is due to the right. The party that claims government doesn't work has repeatedly - for generations - run on this as their platform, and when in power, they ensure it doesn't work by continued regulatory capture and gutting of consumer protections. | |
| ▲ | 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | fcatalan 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'll raise the flag of "Don't nickel and dime me" in every battlefield. | |
| ▲ | lmm 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If it's silly and it works, it's not silly. Criticising our entire economic system tends to have very little effect. Criticising specific poor business practices and/or technologies that enable them has a much better chance of improving people's lives. | | |
| ▲ | josephg 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Criticising our entire economic system tends to have very little effect. I think its actively counterproductive. Criticising the entire economic system doesn't do anything. Complaining in broad strokes about stuff you can't change reduces your sense of agency over the world. Also, if people believe that businesses must be sociopathic, they will make sociopathic choices in business. The belief reinforces the problem. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not that they must be, rather that they are incentivized to be. If you dangle money in front of them what were you expecting? |
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| ▲ | MiiMe19 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because we don't care about capitalism, we don't want over the air updates to our cars. | | |
| ▲ | beached_whale 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't want my vehicle connected at all. It's an open invitation to privacy reducing tech and exploits. | |
| ▲ | darkwater 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I want OTA updates in my car, but I want just benign ones, which add features for free as the software improves. This kind of attitude is like saying "I don't want software that updates on my PC" when you are actually complaining about SaaS products. | |
| ▲ | achierius 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When you're fighting the same enemy on a dozen battlefields, you won't stand a chance of winning until you understand that fact and go after the root cause. | | |
| ▲ | dalmo3 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because enshittification wouldn't happen in a centrally-planned economy? What's the basis of this? | | |
| ▲ | sham1 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This feels to me like a false dichotomy. The only alternative to the current way of doing things isn't a planned command economy, no matter what "libertarians" or tankies might argue. | | |
| ▲ | panick21_ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then explain how it would work exactly. Anything other then capitalism with slightly more regulation is just going from the US to Germany. Great, but they have software updates on cars too. If you want to change anything more fundamental, you are going to have to do a planned economy. At best you can say, maybe could be slightly better Germany by having a better political process or something. But even then, software updates in your car are going to be a reality because it solves are problem for manufactures, saves consumers lots of time in many cases and generally the positives outway the negatives. I bet you 100% that in any planned economy OTA updates would still happen. At best we can argue for some better practice about OTA Updates in regards to security and functionality. Maybe forcing manufactures to have a 'security only' feed an a 'feature feed'. |
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| ▲ | slg 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Then don't frame the argument as "over-the-air updates are bad because of capitalism". | |
| ▲ | BurningFrog 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I love the over the air updates of my car! |
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| ▲ | adrian_b 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As another poster already said, the complaints are not about capitalism, even if sometimes they are worded in such a way, but they are about monopolistic capitalism. For "capitalism" without other qualifications, there are no alternatives. The so-called socialist or communist economies have always lied by pretending that they are not capitalist. In fact all such economies were the extreme form of monopolistic capitalism. Towards the end of the nineties of the previous century, a huge wave of acquisitions and mergers has started and it has never stopped since then. Because of this, to my dismay, because I have grown in a country occupied by communists so I know first hand how such an economy works, the economies of USA and of all the other western countries have begun to resemble more and more every year with the socialist/communist economies that were criticized and ridiculed here in the past. While the lack of competition and its consequences are very similar, in some respect the current US and western economies are even worse than the former socialist/communist economies. At least those had long-term plans. While those plans were frequently not as successful as claimed, they at least realized from time to time useful big infrastructure projects. The main role of the laws and of the state must be the protection of the weak from the powerful, for various definitions of weakness and power, to prevent the alternative of attempting to solve such inequalities by violent means, when everybody loses. Therefore there must be a balance between the economic freedom of the private companies and the regulation of their activities. It is obvious that in USA such a balance has stopped existing long ago and the power of the big companies is unchecked, to the detriment of individuals and small/medium companies. The US legislators spend most of their time fighting for the
introduction of more and more ridiculous laws, which are harmful for the majority of the citizens, while nobody makes the slightest attempt to conceive laws that would really protect the consumers against the abusive practices that have now spread to all big companies. | |
| ▲ | beeflet 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do personal computers even really emerge under communism? it is yet to be seen. But this specific technology seems to only evolve under capitalism to suit the needs of a certain type of buisness against the consumer. If it emerged under communism, it probably would be equally as bad. I imagine if it emerged under communism or socialism it would be designed to solve a similar problems: securing the needs of the state against the citizen. | | |
| ▲ | adrian_b 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is no such thing as a communist economy. The economies of all countries that claimed to be socialist or communist were the extreme form of monopolistic capitalism. Because nowadays the economy of USA resembles more and more every year to that of the socialist countries from the past, a non-negligible risk has appeared for the personal computer to become an endangered species. The prices of personal computers and of their components have been increasing steadily during the last decade, long before the current wave of extreme price increases. There is a steadily increasing pressure from big companies and from the governments controlled by them to eliminate true ownership of computers and of many other electronic devices, by introducing more and more restrictions for what owners can do with their PC/smartphone and by introducing more and more opportunities for others to control those devices remotely. Many kinds of computing devices have eliminated their low-price models and they are offered now only in models so expensive as to be affordable only for big businesses, not for individuals or SMEs. Ten years ago, I could still buy various kinds of professional GPUs with high FP64 throughput and any model of Intel Xeon server CPUs. Nowadays I can choose to buy only high-end desktop CPUs for my servers, because the state-of-the-art server CPUs and datacenter GPUs now have 5-digit prices. NVIDIA, Intel and AMD see only big businesses as customers for such products, and they no longer offer any smaller SKUs in these categories (Intel nominally offers a few cheap Xeons, but those are so crippled that they are not worth for anything else but for enabling the testing of some server systems). So in the kind of unregulated capitalism that exists today in USA, PCs would not have appeared and there is a risk for them to disappear, because they have become a relict of the past. | | |
| ▲ | panick21_ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ah the old 'No true Scotsman' argument. Except of course that the centrally planned economies like the Soviet Union were exactly what socialists before WW1 demanded. And what they tried to implement. If the Soivet Union and friends were not Communist/Socialist then a communist economy simply doesn't exist, and has never existed and we see 0 reason why it would ever exists. And its not even clear what it would be or how it would work. So its completely and utterly irrelevant for any debate in the real world. Its only in circular marxist self-mastrobation logic to redefine Soviet Union as 'monopolistic capitalism'. > The prices of personal computers and of their components have been increasing steadily during the last decade Not in terms of actual performance ... Maybe for Graphics cards, but at the same time, those graphics cards can do things now they could not before so they gained in value. |
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| ▲ | kjkjadksj 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is fair to discuss new inroads of the capitalist devil such as this one | |
| ▲ | LoganDark 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those against capitalism are going to speak out against what capitalism will lead to be exploited. I don't consider it "silly" to be against something that will lead to disaster, even if the disaster is systemic. Like, so what? Honestly. You can be against giving bad actors new tools without the tools having to be bad themselves. That's the premise of gun control for example. |
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| ▲ | shnock 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is a classic example of slippery slope fallacy, and not in the spirit of intellectual curiosity for which this forum exists | | |
| ▲ | hnav 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | But it's true? How does an automaker that doesn't engage in those tactics compete when the rest of the market does? | | |
| ▲ | uniq7 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Like sugar-free, gluten-free, dairy-free, nut-free food, where the lack of something is sold as something positive. I'd love to buy an ad-free, subscription-free, tracking-free, touchscreen-free car. | | |
| ▲ | tirant 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Those cars exist but don’t do well in the market. And only when sold by very little money and cheap parts. People demand connectivity, big screens and lots of software. | |
| ▲ | beeflet 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the future, no one will be rich enough to buy a free car |
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| ▲ | rkagerer 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment Haed disagree. You've been bamboozled, too. Recalls of any kind are a signal to me the vehicle shipped half-baked. I'd rather have the car with slightly older features that took a little longer to release, but got it right before leaving the factory floor. Or at least the one with sufficient isolation between safety-critical and convenience features that recalls like those you describe are low priority enough to not be urgent. |
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| ▲ | panick21_ 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The reality is, and this is just a fact that all cars have recalls. And currently there are already lots of recalls that require software. Now you just have to go to the dealship. At best you could argue, maybe the software is better because a bug is more expensive to fix. But that can also lead to low risk bugs not being fixed. Either way, the solution is not to prevent update, but make the cost higher for companies if their software or their update causes anything safety critical to be wrong. Regulation around having a separate update for security critical things might be reasonable on government level. But usually the update is not forced in if its mostly features. | |
| ▲ | hypfer 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why is this as downvoted as it is? Man. HN. This goddamn platform | | |
| ▲ | angry_octet 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Imagine having a car that pulls packages from npm or Docker hub whenever it gets a network connection. If there were cosmic justice that's what many HN users would get. | | |
| ▲ | hypfer an hour ago | parent [-] | | Knowing the HN crowd, they would probably run over some family barely being able to make rent, then whine on the internet for the next 7 years about how much that event affected _them_ and _their_ feelings. |
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| ▲ | neya 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. Cite your sources, please > cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. If a "recall" can be fixed via software, doesn't that mean just shitty software to begin with? And that usually happens only when a car is infested with tons of software - proving the exact opposite of why we need less software inside cars? |
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| ▲ | cl0ckt0wer 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The dev that has never shipped a bug must file the first cve | |
| ▲ | Barrin92 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Cite your sources, please we need sources for the fact an electric motor, all other things being equal, is better than a combustion engine? If you agree that people in general value the health of their lungs that alone is sufficient reason. It's also becoming quickly a question of geopolitical resilience, running your transport system on dinosaur juice coming from regions where people blow each other up is bad in particular if you happen to be Japanese automaker Honda | | |
| ▲ | neya 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > an electric motor, all other things being equal, is better than a combustion engine? This is not the core argument. Motors maybe superior - we can agree on that. The power source (batteries) and the environmental impact they have - that has always been the core argument. [1] Again, without sources, these are just opinions. Sources: [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30046087/ | | |
| ▲ | ChadNauseam 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Does the article you cited cost money to read? I found a description on google scholar: > Ten years left to redesign lithium-ion batteries > Reserves of cobalt and nickel used in electric-vehicle cells will not meet future demand. Refocus research to find new electrodes based on common elements such as iron and silicon, urge Kostiantyn Turcheniuk and colleagues. I notice that the article was published in 2018. So I guess we only have to wait two more years to decide if it's right or not. Will we be out of cobalt and nickel by then? I'd be happy to take a bet with you, assuming you stand by the article you cited. | |
| ▲ | defrost 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's an atrociously written opinion piece presumeably written to cast shade on the EV industry. Full article, for others: https://sci-hub.ru/10.1038/d41586-018-05752-3 My background is global geophysical exploration, primarily for mineral resources with some dabbling in the energy domain. For a single example, this passage: High demand and prices are already encouraging some producers to cut corners and violate environmental and safety regulations.
For example, in China, dust released from graphite mines has damaged crops and polluted villages and drinking water. In Africa, some mine owners exploit child workers and skimp on protective equipment such as respirators. Small artisanal mines, where ores are extracted by hand, often flout laws.
is entirely emotive, intended to tug on feelings (which it does) but otherwise it has no bearing on the bulk of major mining that contributes to bulk of mineral processing.The tonnes of nickel and cobalt we see largely comes from big mines, big trucks, formal Occ Health and Safety regulations, etc. It also commits the usual mistake of confusing "just in time" exploration results that firm up suspected deposits with sizes and density estimates for the commodities of interest with absolute limits on what is available over the cycle of time. As demand increases further areas that are "known" (but not measured) get further technical inspection (magnetics, drill sampling, etc) and become new fresh reserves. |
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| ▲ | chii 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | rossjudson 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Cite your own sources that they're not. And maybe try to avoid the ten year old nonsense that's frequently floated as "evidence". On recalls -- like the one that said that individual icons have to be slightly bigger? Yeah, shitty software. Or the one that made Tesla annoy drivers with a smaller timeout? That was actually a safety issue --- people would turn off FSD to adjust something and then turn it back on again. Much, much less safe. | | |
| ▲ | neya 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Cite your own sources that they're not. Cite my sources for what exactly? > that they're not. You made an assumption about something I never said and used that as the base of your argument to make a point. I didn't say anything, I simply asked them to cite a source for that kind of a grandiose claim. If you make a claim like that without citation(s), the onus to prove it lies on the person making the said claim, not on me to disprove it. |
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| ▲ | scj 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > "At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update..." If an over-the-air patch can have that kind of impact, then what happens if security is compromised and that power is used for ill? |
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| ▲ | slg 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | When was the last time you worried about someone cutting your brakes? A lot of times these hypothetical fears are disconnected from reality. Security is important, but people generally don't engage in destruction for destruction's sake so improving default safety levels has been a clear net positive for society so far. Maybe I'm being shortshighted and a future security exploit will change that, but it's not something I currently fear as someone whose car gets occasional OTA updates. | | |
| ▲ | rjp0008 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Cutting someones breaks requires physical access to the hardware. Changing:
if (brakeDepressed()){
engageBrake();
}
To:
if (brakeDepressed() && currentTime < '5/6/26 4pm EST'){
engageBrake();
}
Can be deployed to thousands of vehicles, and would stop brakes from working during peak commute time on the East Coast. | | |
| ▲ | silon42 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | To cause a huge annoyance, it could just randomly apply brakes for some time, which is probably much simpler than bypassing the pedal->brake. | |
| ▲ | slg 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Someone who can write out that code with that specificity should know there are countless technical and procedural ways to help prevent that sort of thing from actually making its way into consumer vehicles (or that OTA updates would be the only avenue to accomplish that). In a properly designed system, the only real fear here is a state-level attack. And I just don't think getting every Honda to crash at 4pm is a vulnerable enough attack vector to make this hypothetical worthy of much thought. | | |
| ▲ | ivell 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not only state actors. Vulnerability can be exploited by non-state actors. A terrorist getting hold of this capability to crash every Honda at 4pm introduces new challenges. The impact of 9/11 was not about how many people were killed. But it terrorized the population with that act. People stopped getting into flights. Imagine similar stuff with our daily routine cars. | |
| ▲ | zvqcMMV6Zcr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In a properly designed system, the only real fear here is a state-level attack. No, I actually also have to wonder if manufacturer OTA update won't brick my car on their whim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OB2NqcSDXQ | |
| ▲ | bluGill 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | State level actors have plenty of money to find any exploit around those protections and some need little incentive. They can hire a spy to cut my break line but their gain is much lower vs the cost. They don't care about me at all anyway except if I'm in a group of 100k people they can get at once. | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the only real fear here is a state-level attack. This is blatantly false. In the real world there was a major recall after security researchers (not state actors) demonstrated that they could remotely interfere with safety critical systems. OTA updates without user involvement are a massive security vulnerability. So are internet connected safety critical systems. Neither should be legally permissible IMO. > I just don't think getting every Honda to crash at 4pm is a vulnerable enough attack vector to make this hypothetical worthy of much thought. Setting aside assassinations do you just have no imagination? There have been all sorts of crazy disgruntled worker sabotage stories over the years. Mass shooters exist. Political and religious terrorists exist. For a specific mass scale state level hypothetical imagine that the US enters a hot war with a peer adversary for whatever reason. The next day during the morning commute the entire interstate system grids to a halt, the hospitals are completely overwhelmed, and the entire supply chain collapses for a week or so while we pick up the pieces. With a bit of (un)luck it might happen to catch an oil tanker in the crossfire while it was in a tunnel thereby scoring infrastructure damage that would take years to fix. | |
| ▲ | dumpsterdiver 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > should know there are countless technical and procedural ways to help prevent that sort of thing Sometimes when I look at code it feels like I was led into a weird surprise party celebrating structure and correctness, only for everyone to jump out as soon as I get past the door to shout, “Just kidding - it’s the same old bullshit!” All that to say, we’re about as good or worse as anyone else, at our respective jobs. | |
| ▲ | beeflet 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How do you know that a car is the result of a properly designed system before you get behind the wheel (or step in front of it?). >the only real fear here is a state-level attack Why isn't this a valid concern? We should just be fine with russia or china having the ability to remotely hack all of our cars and kill/spy on individuals, even critical members of our leadership? What about our own government? What about some terrorist launching formerly state-level malware from his basement with the help of AI? |
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| ▲ | Terr_ 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A lot of times these hypothetical fears are disconnected from reality. Conversely, a lot of times people don't fear real dangers of reality until it bites them. "Hackers wouldn't care about me, and the single password I use on every website is super good and complicated." > but people generally don't engage in destruction for destruction's sake Generally true, but they do engage in destruction when there's profit to be made or when it becomes in their geopolitical interests, and sometimes that destruction is quite notable: Remember when it was safe to assume that passengers could passively wait out airplane hijackings? Your average script-kiddie might not seriously consider cutting everyone's brakes simultaneously, Al Queda would have been giddy. | |
| ▲ | wisty 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I can imagine a nation state behaving badly in 2026 ... | |
| ▲ | 0cf8612b2e1e 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Software has an atrocious track record for security. Doubly so for hardware manufacturers. It only takes one smart cow to disable millions of vehicles vs a local knave cutting brake lines. I yearn for the days of wrapped software where developers had to make a gold pressed release. Not, “we can patch it later”. | |
| ▲ | beeflet 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you want to talk about society, then this is about systematic security not individual security. If someone somewhere can push a button and flash your car with OTA firmware to drive you off a bridge, political assasinations become a lot easier. In fact, with all this data they are collecting, you wouldn't even need to be the next edward snowden to get this treatment. You could set the firmware to target, say, every left-wing voter in america. You don't even need the own the car with such behavior. Everyone becomes a pedestrian eventually. |
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| ▲ | somerandomqaguy 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced Maybe? At least in my experience, once the cost of patching buggy software goes down, it typically means that the people become more willing to ship software with more bugs with a fix it later attitude. |
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| ▲ | jojobas 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd go with "please download this file onto a usb key and run the update when you have a minute" over the car doing anything "automatically". |
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| ▲ | mook 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. Experience with boxed versus updatable software, particularly video games, says otherwise. When it costs a lot for the manufacturer to fix defects, they put more emphasis on not having them in the first place. Otherwise we just just a parade of defects all the time. Even if it's minor things and never fixed, the user can adapt; that's not possible in the face of continuous updates. |
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| ▲ | jpfromlondon 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | in addition to partially complete on delivery, and "oh that feature is actually really popular, lets paywall it in the next release" and other nerfs. |
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| ▲ | maxerickson 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How many software recalls did something other than fix a bug or derate something? |
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| ▲ | jleyank 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | What happens if they screw up the update or a net error occurs? Will this wedge the entertainment system, motor logic or what? |
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| ▲ | jtbayly 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’ve never had a software-based danger on my hardware-based vehicles. As such, there is a whole class of recalls that I never needed: all the ones you tell me I’m missing out on. |
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| ▲ | AlotOfReading 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm impressed that you're daily driving what must be a 30+ year old vehicle. What model? Most enthusiasts have another vehicle to keep the miles down and use when the antique needs maintenance. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1990 AU Ford Falcon family here - still in near showroom condition (well, looks good but has a scratch and a minor ding) with ~ 600,000 km on the clock. > when the antique needs maintenance. You're talking about all the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, et al cars, tracks and tractors that litter our district? Yeah - there are a lot of them in this part of the world. All the farmers love the bleeding edge gear and are getting into AgBot boom sprayers, etc - but they still can't shake a love of keeping the really old stuff going - pimped up rat-trucks abound and we rebuilt an old Alice Chambers tractor ourselves two years back. | | |
| ▲ | AlotOfReading 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Antique" is a term for any vehicle that meets the local criteria for antique vehicle registration [0], usually older than 25-30 years. Your falcon is in the same club as those older vehicles now. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_vehicle_registration | | |
| ▲ | defrost 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Your falcon is in the same club as those older vehicles now. No, it isn't - you missed: In Australia, the rules for antique vehicle registration vary between states.
I am well aware that the vehicle I own and drive is normally registered as a normal vehicle and is not treated as an antique.What we do have, here in W.Australia, is a limited usage "Classics" rego for vehicles 30 years or older. Reduced rates for enforced (but how??) reduced usage: The owners must also be a financial member of a Department of Transport (DoT) approved motoring club.
a 1991 Holden Commodore would drop from $867.55 to $171.30 per year
Vehicles in the scheme are only able to be driven on public roads for a maximum of 90 days per annum.
Classics (not antiques!) are beloved cars kept road ready but only occassionally used on public roads.* https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor... * https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/concessions/classi... |
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| ▲ | 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | stinkbeetle 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. This doesn't have anything to do with EV vs ICE, but whether it has a over the air updates and whether the problem can be fixed with a software update or not. I expect car recalls are pretty well into the noise in terms of "societal level" problems too aren't they? Even if they were not I expect whole "software defined car" thing, whatever that really means, has not resulted in mechanical defects plummeting, but rather just more software defects. Although it is quite possible EVs have less defects in general than ICE cars I suppose. |