Remix.run Logo
LotusNotes(computer.rip)
73 points by TMWNN 4 days ago | 34 comments
GMoromisato 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I was a developer at Iris Associates--I worked on versions 2 through 4. For version 3 I stuck in an easter egg in the About box. A certain combination of keys would produce a Monty-Python-like cut-out of Ray Ozzie's head and the names of the developers would fly out of his mouth. [This was when the software world was young and innocent and developers were trusted far beyond what they probably should have been.]

Lotus Notes was, I firmly believe, a glimpse of the future to come. In 1996, Lotus Notes had encrypted messaging, shared calendars, rich-text editing, and a sophisticated app development environment. I had my entire work environment (email, calendar, bugs database, etc.) fully replicated on my computer. I could do everything offline and later, replicate with the server.

And this was two years before the launch of Google and eight years before GMail!

In the article, the author speculates that the simplicity of the Lotus Notes model--everything is a note--caused it to become too complicated and too brittle. I don't think that's true.

Lotus Notes died because the web took over, and the web took over because it was even simpler. Lotus Notes was a thick client and a sophisticated server. The web is just a protocol. Even before AI, I could write a web server in a weekend. A browser is harder, but browsers are free and ubiquitous.

The web won because it could evolve faster than Lotus Notes could. And because it was free. The web won because it was open.

nradov 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lotus Notes as a thick client application was a dead end but the Domino server could have lived on as a back end database for web applications, if IBM had any vision. The core technology of a fast, secure NoSQL document database with multi-master replication actually worked really well (at least after they fixed the index corruption race condition bug that I found). But it had a weird stupid limit of (I think) 64GB per file with no automatic sharding support. And they never added XML or JSON as native data types. So it gradually became useless. What a shame.

topspin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Lotus Notes died because the web took over

Lotus Notes died because it was proprietary. Had it been open: an open server and open protocol, I believe every device would be using it today.

I had one good dose of that platform for four years. It was a biotech with ~100 people in five countries[1], and four states in the US. There were Notes servers all over the place, and it worked with skeletal admin resources on neglected, low cost Dell boxes. It worked for management, sales and the labs.

[1] US, Germany, France, Japan and Canada, in that order.

wolvoleo 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

M365 is proprietary and it is widely used by companies

EagnaIonat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the things that killed it is it suffered the same issue as Visual Basic in that time.

Anyone could create an application. 99% of the time that anyone had 0 UX experience and created travesties that were horrible to use. So people associated the poorly designed database with the product.

somat 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't entirely buy it, If true that should have killed the web, perhaps the web survived because it was not a product.

EagnaIonat an hour ago | parent [-]

There were UX horror stories on the web as well. I guess it is the physical connection of having to start up your Notes application in work and being forced to use poorly designed apps.

dundercoder 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

With everything as a note, how was it so performant? How did it scale so well?

GMoromisato 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It was basically NoSQL before NoSQL.

Each note was just a record, but with no schema. Schemas were imposed at the UI layer by forms and at indexing time by views.

shrikant 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Baffling to see this, in every place I've worked at that used Lotus Notes, it was an absolute dog on the system. Clunky, slow, and ground everything else to a halt. And this was the case even on a relatively modern laptop in 2019. Not what I'd call performant at all!

andrewstuart 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There were many reasons Notes died.

It was very hard to get data in and out it had almost no capability for data import/export.

Internet email killed Notes early advantage as one of the first email systems.

It was a very closed environment hard to connect or program outside its own sandbox.

Sharepoint was a full on assault by Microsoft on the groupware category and its enormous success was at the expense of Notes.

The web did many things better than notes there much much overlap.

The UI was clunky in some ways.

Some of the concepts like replication were just too much too early for many people to grasp.

SQL rose in the corporate world chipping away further at notes.

The Notes formula language was good ish for the time but really became very dated, and the alternative LotusScript was a dead end too.

Unstructured document databases were very polarizing sine people hated them with a passion.

The parent company Lotus main product 1-2-3 which ad dominated the spreadsheet world got smashed by Excel.

There’s more reasons too but there’s enough there you can see the doom of Notes.

rahimnathwani 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm curious about this part: "The Notes formula language was good ish for the time but really became very dated, and the alternative LotusScript was a dead end too."

IIRC LotusScript was basically VB but with a different object model. Why was it a dead end?

andrewstuart an hour ago | parent [-]

Well I suppose the whole thing was a dead end.

Back then a lot of software particularly in the windows world wasn’t very good at talking to anything else. Today everything talks to everything.

Notes already had so many problems it was sunk and lotuscript which as you say was like script. Good but not enough to stop the titanic hitting the iceberg.

pscanf 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm building an app that is, in a way, a modern take on Lotus Notes (https://github.com/superegodev/superego), and I couldn't feel this more:

> It is hard, today, to explain exactly what Lotus Notes was.

Whenever I try to explain what it does to a non-tech person, I'm met with confused looks that make me quickly give up and mumble something like "It's for techies and data nerds". I think to myself "they're not my target audience".

But I actually would like them to be, at some point. In the 90s "the generality and depth of its capabilities meant that it was also just plain hard to use", but now LLMs lower a lot the barrier to entry, so I think there can be a renaissance of such malleable¹ platforms.

Of course, the user still needs to "know what they need" and see software as something that can be configured and shaped to their needs which, with "digital literacy" decreasing, might be a bigger obstacle than I think.

¹ https://www.inkandswitch.com/malleable-software

dharmatech 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just watched your demo here:

https://youtu.be/vB3xo2qn_g4?si=y2udkdfezSR9ktUO

Pretty cool!

dharmatech 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I like that you can generate new programs from within the system.

That's something I miss with Notion. I basically want a Notion but extensible and malleable like Emacs.

pscanf 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes! That's more or less the angle I'm going for. I mean, I don't aim just yet for Emacs-levels of malleability, but at least for something where you can create some useful day to day personal tools.

dharmatech 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is there a story behind the old guy in the logo?

allenu 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It must be a nod to Freud (i.e. id, ego, and super ego)

pscanf 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Correct. Admittedly, graphic design is not even my passion, so there's probably lots of room for improvement. But at this point I've grown accustomed to the friendly face. :D

dharmatech 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Many people seem to associate "ego" with negative connotation.

The name gives a weird vibe. But, it's free and it's your project so, whatever. ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯

pscanf 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, I agree, though it wants to be slightly provocative as well: it's all about you, your data, your software, your rights.

dharmatech 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah... Ok, that makes sense.

rahimnathwani an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Lotus Domino (the Lotus Notes server) still lives on as HCL Domino: https://www.wappalyzer.com/technologies/web-servers/hcl-domi...

San Francisco's school board still uses it: https://go.boarddocs.com/ca/sfusd/Board.nsf/Public

(Note the .nsf extension, which signifies a Notes database)

zaphod_b 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Admittedly, IBM buying a popular software product at great expense and running it into the ground is an old story.

IBM (Rational (Pure (Atria))) ClearCase and IBM (Rational (Telelogic)) Synergy are two other casualties why I once showed a slide of the elephant cemetary from the Lion King in a Powerpoint presentation arguing why the company should switch to git.

andrewstuart 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Lotus Notes was astounding when it arrived.

Windows had barely landed. Networking was really only used for file serving in most corporations. There was no email at most companies and TCP/IP was still mostly a university and government thing.

Notes turned up as a deeply sophisticated Windows application, a no-code development environment, document oriented, replicated distributed shared data system with built in security encryption, email and all deeply integrated with the concepts of people and groups of people, which everyone takes for granted now, but back then wasn’t part of corporate computing at all.

The email alone led the rise of Lotus Notes, let alone the rest of the system.

Using Notes you could suddenly create applications that shared data across your office locations - you ran a server locally and Notes dialed up the other servers and did replication of just the changed/different data. It was gob smacking because nothing else could do this.

At a time when personal computing was very much the model, it was like someone had sent this software from the future.

EvanAnderson 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I did contract work for a company who made heavy investments into Notes-based applications. The replication capability was super cool. We would setup a new client computer on the corporate LAN, synchronize them to the various Notes databases they needed, then send the computer out to field service reps who would use the computers mostly offline. They updated over a pool of dial-up modems at headquarters. They would run mostly overnight, with the field service reps dialing-in before bed and leaving it to run until it automatically disconnected. Later they used a VPN and dial-up ISPs. It worked astoundingly well.

Their developers moved thru the organization over a period of years making Notes databases out of every paper form-based workflow process they could get their hands on. I lost touch with them and they were acquired by another company, ultimately. I'd love to know what happened to all those custom applications living in Notes. It's hard to think of a platform that could have easily replaced it-- particularly the offline sync / local first portion.

dharmatech 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Love stories like this about bespoke systems that might still be running out there somewhere.

senectus1 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I used to manage a Domino/Notes environment back in my early days in IT.

Domino server was rock solid I never had to worry about it at all.

Notes client was clunky and not super intuitive (4.* through to version 6.01 I think) but was still quite a decent client. groundbreaking stuff for the time. I have mostly fond memories of it.

dharmatech 3 hours ago | parent [-]

What platform did you run Domino on?

If Domino was solid, I'd imagine Domino on AS/400 was near unstoppable.

senectus1 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I had an AS/400 but unfortunately never got to run it on that. (it was a JD Edwards server for the ERP system)

Nope it was on good old winNT 4

I think we may have upgraded it to windows server 2000 at one point as well.

I remember that the disk partition it ran on ran out of disk space once.. it kept ticking along. just didnt let users make changes. Amazing stuff.

BoredPositron an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would rather use LotusNotes again than the modern Microsoft stack.

cake-rusk 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It was bad. There was a dedicated site called lotusnotessucks.com or something like that. It does not exist anymore but here is an article about it: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2006/feb/09/guardianw...

cake-rusk 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

Here's a quote from the article. Hopefully this helps the people with rose tinted glasses get some perspective...

>Lotus Notes is used by millions of people, but almost all of them seem to hate it. How can a program be so bad, yet thrive?