Remix.run Logo
GMoromisato 6 hours ago

I was a developer at Iris Associates--I worked on versions 2 through 4. For version 3 I stuck in an easter egg in the About box. A certain combination of keys would produce a Monty-Python-like cut-out of Ray Ozzie's head and the names of the developers would fly out of his mouth. [This was when the software world was young and innocent and developers were trusted far beyond what they probably should have been.]

Lotus Notes was, I firmly believe, a glimpse of the future to come. In 1996, Lotus Notes had encrypted messaging, shared calendars, rich-text editing, and a sophisticated app development environment. I had my entire work environment (email, calendar, bugs database, etc.) fully replicated on my computer. I could do everything offline and later, replicate with the server.

And this was two years before the launch of Google and eight years before GMail!

In the article, the author speculates that the simplicity of the Lotus Notes model--everything is a note--caused it to become too complicated and too brittle. I don't think that's true.

Lotus Notes died because the web took over, and the web took over because it was even simpler. Lotus Notes was a thick client and a sophisticated server. The web is just a protocol. Even before AI, I could write a web server in a weekend. A browser is harder, but browsers are free and ubiquitous.

The web won because it could evolve faster than Lotus Notes could. And because it was free. The web won because it was open.

nradov 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lotus Notes as a thick client application was a dead end but the Domino server could have lived on as a back end database for web applications, if IBM had any vision. The core technology of a fast, secure NoSQL document database with multi-master replication actually worked really well (at least after they fixed the index corruption race condition bug that I found). But it had a weird stupid limit of (I think) 64GB per file with no automatic sharding support. And they never added XML or JSON as native data types. So it gradually became useless. What a shame.

topspin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Lotus Notes died because the web took over

Lotus Notes died because it was proprietary. Had it been open: an open server and open protocol, I believe every device would be using it today.

I had one good dose of that platform for four years. It was a biotech with ~100 people in five countries[1], and four states in the US. There were Notes servers all over the place, and it worked with skeletal admin resources on neglected, low cost Dell boxes. It worked for management, sales and the labs.

[1] US, Germany, France, Japan and Canada, in that order.

wolvoleo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

M365 is proprietary and it is widely used by companies

chris_wot an hour ago | parent [-]

It’s all that survived.

EagnaIonat 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the things that killed it is it suffered the same issue as Visual Basic in that time.

Anyone could create an application. 99% of the time that anyone had 0 UX experience and created travesties that were horrible to use. So people associated the poorly designed database with the product.

dspillett 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Another major issue was that the first implementation most people saw of it was the email side, and it could be a truly clunky and unpleasant email client. This soured opinions before people delved into the document management and programmability features that email handling were just one use of.

From a technical point of view one of the bonuses I saw was that it used PKI throughout for encryption and such, which very little other software did. Though this was also clunky at times especially for non-technical users (has anyone ever made the use of PKI a smooth process for those who don't care to know the details?). Proper ACL management too rather than more simplistic permissions, but again this could be very clunky.

Though I'm not sure why we are talking entirely in the past tense, while Domino & Notes are not widely used anymore, they are still out there and developed (under the name HLC Notes) with the last release (adding LLM based “AI” features, of course…) was Jun last year and a bugfix update a few months later. My experience with Domino/Notes was in the 00s and early 10s when I was the accidental admin (the only guy who really understood it left) of a mail and document server based on it, hopefully the clunkiness complaints at least have been addressed since then.

somat 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't entirely buy it, If true that should have killed the web, perhaps the web survived because it was not a product.

EagnaIonat 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There were UX horror stories on the web as well. I guess it is the physical connection of having to start up your Notes application in work and being forced to use poorly designed apps.

andrewstuart 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There were many reasons Notes died.

It was very hard to get data in and out it had almost no capability for data import/export.

Internet email killed Notes early advantage as one of the first email systems.

It was a very closed environment hard to connect or program outside its own sandbox.

Sharepoint was a full on assault by Microsoft on the groupware category and its enormous success was at the expense of Notes.

The web did many things better than notes there much much overlap.

The UI was clunky in some ways.

Some of the concepts like replication were just too much too early for many people to grasp.

SQL rose in the corporate world chipping away further at notes.

The Notes formula language was good ish for the time but really became very dated, and the alternative LotusScript was a dead end too.

Unstructured document databases were very polarizing sine people hated them with a passion.

The parent company Lotus main product 1-2-3 which ad dominated the spreadsheet world got smashed by Excel.

There’s more reasons too but there’s enough there you can see the doom of Notes.

rahimnathwani 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm curious about this part: "The Notes formula language was good ish for the time but really became very dated, and the alternative LotusScript was a dead end too."

IIRC LotusScript was basically VB but with a different object model. Why was it a dead end?

andrewstuart 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Well I suppose the whole thing was a dead end.

Back then a lot of software particularly in the windows world wasn’t very good at talking to anything else. Today everything talks to everything.

Notes already had so many problems it was sunk and lotuscript which as you say was like script. Good but not enough to stop the titanic hitting the iceberg.

dundercoder 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

With everything as a note, how was it so performant? How did it scale so well?

GMoromisato 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It was basically NoSQL before NoSQL.

Each note was just a record, but with no schema. Schemas were imposed at the UI layer by forms and at indexing time by views.

shrikant 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Baffling to see this, in every place I've worked at that used Lotus Notes, it was an absolute dog on the system. Clunky, slow, and ground everything else to a halt. And this was the case even on a relatively modern laptop in 2019. Not what I'd call performant at all!