| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 5 hours ago |
| This seems quite positive to me: Clearly the rightsholders are not being total jerks since they're happy to allow an OpenTTD bundle, and the original game is available with modern fixes as well. |
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| ▲ | rpcope1 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I kind of doubt that. Chris Sawyer is on record being really hostile to open source reimaginations, especially OpenTTD (and it's just a reimagination at this point as OpenTTD shares no assets or code with it's predecessor). It wouldn't remotely surprise me if Atari was putting legal pressure on the OpenTTD devs. |
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| ▲ | Macha 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think really hostile is overstating it. He's clearly not a fan, but he seems content to (mostly privately) disapprove rather than take actions against it, which is what would to me qualify him as hostile. | | |
| ▲ | Chaosvex 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | He doesn't own the rights, so there's little he could do even if he wanted. |
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| ▲ | singpolyma3 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think they'd have any case for legitimate legal pressure but clearly some kind of underhanded bullying. Hopefully no one buys this |
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| ▲ | denotational 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Given the “rightsholders” have no rights over OpenTTD (only the assets are copyrightable, and OpenTTD has had its own set of open-source assets for the past 15 years), I can’t agree with this. I’m not sure how to interpret this other than Atari not wanting to compete with OpenTTD on Steam. |
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| ▲ | Tuna-Fish 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's more complicated than that. For an asset to be derived work from an original, it is not necessary for it to contain anything from the original. If you start from copyrighted assets, and meticulously replace them all with your own art piece by piece, while following the style and constraints of the originals, and while looking at the originals, I'd bet that a court would find your work to be derived from the originals and therefore under their copyright. A lot of the fan-driven reimplementations of classic games are trivially derived works, because people seem to think that the copyright only covers the pixels in the originals and if you replace them you're fine. | | |
| ▲ | anthk 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | FreeDoom does that with Doom and it has compatible assets but not in the same style altough they are done in such smart way that most PWADs and TC are totally playable without clashes, from Requiem to Back To Saturn. On game engines, reimplementations are not derivations at all but tools for interoperability, totally legal to create. From Wine to most of the stuff of https://osgameclones.com, to GNUStep against NeXT/OpenStep API (and Cocoa from early OSX) and so on. If you could sell Cedega back in the day you can totally sell OpenTTD with free assets, period. The entire PC industry exists today because of cheap IBM BIOS clones from Taiwan. | | |
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| ▲ | refulgentis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can’t tell if this is narrowly worded to only talk about copyright because you don’t know it was built from decompiled TTD, that source code is copyrightable, and TTD is a trademark. or, you do know, but feel the current IP rights regime is illegitimate. And I don’t want to insult you by quietly assuming the first, so figured I’d spell it out. I’m usually sentimentally open to IP rights being overly constrictive in the current regime, but faced with a company that owns TTD™ saying “hey, instead of going full lawyer nastygram to avoid confusion, let’s work this out so people get your stuff when they download ours”…seems pretty nice. Like I can’t imagine Microsoft allowing alt-universe OpenWindows™ on the Windows Store. | | |
| ▲ | A1kmm 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think the registered trademark is Transport Tycoon not TTD. The public may have called it TTD, but I'm not sure they used it in trade (IANAL, not legal advice). And I don't think the OpenTTD devs call it "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe" anywhere. So the trademark case against the OpenTTD devs is likely pretty weak. I personally think it is the copyright that is the most uncertain. Firstly, there are probably quite a few venues around the world where Atari might be able to take this up, and quite a diversity of precedent between them. Historically Atari litigated in the US - in 1981 they lost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_v._Amusement_World on a case someone infringed by copying their look and feel without copying any assets. Other precedents in that jurisdiction have found it's not infringing if similarities are inherent to the subject matter of the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_East_USA,_Inc._v._Epyx,_I.... but similarity of art style is copyrightable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Holding,_LLC_v._Xio_Int.... |
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| ▲ | tonypapousek 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > If you already own OpenTTD on Steam, nothing changes. You’ll continue to receive game updates as usual. If you ever need to re-download the game, the game will remain in your Steam library. This part of the announcement was nice, too. It would suck if existing users had it deleted from their libraries. |
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| ▲ | Nition 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Steam is really good about that kind of thing. Not quite the same, but I have a couple of games on my account that haven't been sold on the store for years, and I can still download them any time. I don't think there's any way for publishers to really remove a game that's already been purchased. | | |
| ▲ | Krutonium 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're correct. It's part of the Steam Publisher Agreement that basically, you can't remove your game from users who have paid for it. And if you push an update that deletes the files, Valve can, will, and has rolled back the update. Of course, there's also situations where Valve has assisted in removing titles at developers request, but it was a situation Valve was involved in - Specifically, a game called "The Ship" had a Multiplayer version, and it was built on Source, but they could never quite get it to work correctly, even with Valve's help. Wouldn't sync. Valve helped them remove the Multiplayer version. (but you still kept the single player.) |
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| ▲ | rasz 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| More likely they were jerks and blackmailed openttd into bundle on the threat of forcing them off steam altogether. |
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| ▲ | LASR 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yep. There is no being nice in the business of copyright. But to be fair, they’ve owned the original base game assets. Not to mention it’s a reverse engineered version of the base game. | |
| ▲ | ocdtrekkie 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They legally own the assets. Taking them off Steam if the title is no longer abandoned by the publisher is a 100% reasonable decision, so you need to understand this is above and beyond what the publisher needs to do. An outcome like this more than likely means the folks working on the rerelease are fans of OpenTTD and worked internally to protect it. | | |
| ▲ | integralid 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you sure the stream version has proprietary assets? I was under impression that they had some open assets, but I may be wrong. | | |
| ▲ | Krutonium 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | OpenTTD has had entirely their own assets for 15 years. | | |
| ▲ | hatsuseno 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | But OpenTTD itself isn't a clean-room implementation of the game, it's a branch off a decompilation of the original game. If Atari was really out to copyright the project into oblivion, they're likely to succeed in a legal sense*. Within the confines of the current laws and known history of the game, and being a fan of both works, I think this compromise is fair. *NotALawyerClause |
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| ▲ | kmeisthax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The issue isn't the game assets. The division between assets and code is something id invented so they could open up their old game engines while still being able to sell[0] copies of the original DOOM. But that boundary is entirely a choice of the developer, and a consequence of separability of copyright - if you make something, you can break up the rights and hand them out in different ways. Legally speaking, the only thing that matters is if any part of OpenTTD is the same as any part of Transport Tycoon. This part gets a little confusing in software, because we have a proud history of both cultural norms and actual caselaw allowing unauthorized reimplementation of other people's copyright-bearing APIs. Applying copyright to software basically created a mutant form of patent law that lasts forever, so the courts had to spend decades paring it back by defining boundaries between the two. Reimplementation precedent is part of that boundary. But all of that precedent relies upon software compatibility - the argument being that if you lawfully use someone else's software library to write software, you are not surrendering ownership over your own program to your library vendor, and someone else with a compatible replacement is not infringing the original library. Legal arguments relying on reimplementation work well when the APIs in question are minimally creative and there is a large amount of third-party software that used them. The closest example would be something like Ruffle, which reimplements a Flash Player runtime that was used for a countless number of games. OpenTTD exists to reimplement precisely one game, specifically to enable a bunch of unauthorized derivative works that would be facially illegal if they had been applied directly to the TTD source code. This wouldn't fly in court. In court, OpenTTD would be judged based on substantial similarity between its code and Transport Tycoon's code. While copyright does not apply to game rules, and cloning a game is legal[1], I am not aware of any effort in OpenTTD to ensure their implementation of those rules is creatively distinct from Transport Tycoon's. In fact, OpenTTD was forked from a disassembly of the latter, which is highly likely[2] to produce substantial similarity. tl;dr I'm genuinely surprised Atari didn't sue them off Steam! [0] Translation for pedants: "have a monopoly on selling". In the creative biz, two people generally don't make money selling the same thing. [1] Trade dress and trademark lawsuits notwithstanding - The Tetris Company has done an awful lot of litigation on that front. [2] The standard way to avoid this is clean-room reverse engineering. It's not a legal requirement, of course, but it helps a lot. |
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