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ff317 3 hours ago

The reason speed limits make such a great example for these arguments is because they're a preemptive law. Technically, nobody is directly harmed by speeding. We outlaw speeding on the belief that it statistically leads to and/or is correlated with other harms. Contrast this to a law against assault or theft: in those kinds of cases, the law makes the direct harm itself illegal.

Increasing the precision of enforcement makes a lot more sense for direct-harm laws. You won't find anyone seriously arguing that full 100% enforcement of murder laws is a bad idea. It's the preemptive laws, which were often lazily enforced, especially when no real harm resulted from the action, where this all gets complicated. Maybe this is the distinction to focus on.

derefr a few seconds ago | parent | next [-]

I think I would expect certain laws that are currently considered statutory / strict-liability laws, to be shifted to instead constitute only "evidence of negligence" and/or act as "aggravating conditions."

So, in the case of speeding:

- Speeding on its own would only "warrant" the police to stop you / interview you / tell you off, and perhaps to follow you around for a while after they pull you over, to ensure you don't start speeding again (and to immediately pull you over again if you do.) I say "warrant" here because it literally just means "This would normally be considered harassment on their part, but they are warranted to violate harassment law here." (Just like a search warrant warrants the police to violate property law.)

- Speeding while in the process of committing some other "actual" crime, or speeding that contributes to some other crime being committed, may be an aggravating factor that multiplies the penalty associated with the other act, or changes the nominal charge for the other act;

We might also then see a tweak for "threshold aggravations", such that e.g.

- Speeding while also doing some other dumb thing — having your brake-lights broken, say — may be considered to "cross a threshold" where they add up to an arrest+charge, even though none of the individual violations has a penalty when considered independently.

(Oddly, I think if you follow this legal paradigm to its natural conclusion, it could lead to a world where it could even be legal to e.g. drive your car home from the bar while intoxicated... as long as you're driving at 2mph, with your hazards on, and avoiding highways. But miss any of those factors, and it "co-aggravates" with a "driving recklessly for your reaction speed" charge, into an actual crime.)

hamdingers 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This unwritten distinction exists only to allow targeted enforcement in service of harassment and oppression. There is no upside (even if getting away with speeding feels good). We should strive to enforce all laws 100% of the time as that is the only fair option.

If a law being enforced 100% of the time causes problems then rethink the law (i.e. raise the speed limit, or design the road slower).

gbalduzzi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If a law being enforced 100% of the time causes problems then rethink the law (i.e. raise the speed limit, or design the road slower).

Isn't this the point of the whole conversation we are having here?

Laws on copyright were not created for current AI usage on open source project replication.

They need to change, because if they are perfectly enforced by the letter, they result in actions that are clearly against the intent of the law itself.

The underlying problem is that the world changes too fast for the laws so be fair immediately

ompogUe 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

^This. A large % of jurisprudence is in just trying to keep up with how tech disrupts society.

randallsquared 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

The reason that has to be done is precisely that the law has no common, well-architected rationale. The vast majority of law in common-law jurisdictions is ad hoc precedent from decades or centuries ago, patchwork laws that match current, ephemeral intuition about what the law should be, etc. Perfect and inevitable enforcement makes this situation a nightmare, given the expectation that the average US citizen commits multiple felonies per day. Something will have to give.

terryf an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The speed limit example is a great one. Consider a road that has a 35mph limit. Now - which of the following scenarios is SAFER: a) I'm driving on the road in a brand new 4x4 porsche on a sunny day with great visibility and brand new tyres. Doing 40mph. b) I'm driving on the same road in a 70s car with legal but somewhat worn out tyres, in the dark, while it's raining heavily. Doing 35mph.

Of course technically option a is violating the law but no sane police officer will give you a fine in this case. Nor should they! A robot will, however. This is stupid.

hamdingers 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

The Cayenne would be safer going 35 instead of 40 regardless of all other variables. It's a trivial physics question, kinetic energy is a function of mass and velocity.

terryf 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

I meant a 911 but thank you for answering a completely different point than what I was making.

namlem 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is an upside: oppressing people who consistently engage in antisocial behavior is good and necessary.

Geezus_42 an hour ago | parent [-]

The whole point is that only some of those engaging in anti-social behaviour recieve punishment.

airstrike 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A system that solves for absolute compliance in every individual case does not result in the emergence of a fairer society.

There are numerous cases, both in history and in fiction, that demonstrate as much.

encom 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If speed limits were automated rigidly enforced 100% of the time, it would be impossible to drive.

>only to allow targeted enforcement in service of harassment and oppression

That's absurd hyperbole. A competent policeman will recognise the difference between me driving 90 km/h on a 80 km/h road because I didn't notice the sign. And me driving 120 km/h out of complete disregard for human life. Should I get a fine for driving 90? Yea, probably. Is it a first time offence? Was anyone else on the road? Did the sign get knocked down? Is it day or night? Have I done this 15 times before? Is my wife in labour in the passenger seat? None of those are excuses, but could be grounds for a warning instead.

5upplied_demand 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> If speed limits were automated rigidly enforced 100% of the time, it would be impossible to drive.

Why? Plenty of people drive in areas with speed cameras, isn't that exactly how they work?

> That's absurd hyperbole. A competent policeman will recognise the difference between me driving 90 km/h on a 80 km/h road because I didn't notice the sign.

I'm not sure it is hyperbole or that we should assume competence/good faith. Multiple studies have shown that traffic laws, specifically, are enforced in an inconsistent matter that best correlates with the driver's race.

[0] https://www.aclu-il.org/press-releases/black-and-latino-moto...

[1] https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/bl...

hamdingers 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> If speed limits were automated rigidly enforced 100% of the time, it would be impossible to drive.

If you find it impossible to follow a simple speed limit, then getting you off the road is the ideal outcome.

okasaki 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Not really? If you're caught with burglary tools on private property that's still illegal even if you only took one step.

Likewise if act in a way that makes someone feel that you're going to hit them that's assault regardless of whether you actually ever touch them.

etc. Many such cases.