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bluepeter 6 hours ago

British aristocracy has been pronouncing their own surnames wrong for centuries on purpose. Cholmondeley is "Chumley" Featherstonehaugh is "Fanshaw." If you read it phonetically you mark yourself as an outsider. The misstake is the membership card. (Heck, even in Portland we locals hear about misprouncing Couch St probably every year in local press as some bar for membership to our own locals only vibe.)

radpanda 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't really see that as the same thing as what the article was pointing out. Those are shibboleths that only an insider would know. You have to get the pronunciation of Cholmondeley or Couch "right" to pass for an insider.

The random misspellings, missing spaces, sloppy grammar, etc in the examples in the article seem different to me. Misspelling "en route" as "enriewu" doesn't show, "look, I know the secret country club spelling for en route". It simply shows that you don't have to care about your mistakes. You write something that approximates what you mean, and you're too important to spend time revising. The mistake could be "enrout" or "n route" or on any other word. But you're not going to be a try-hard who edits and frets over their messages, you're blessing someone with 10 seconds of your attention and they're lucky to receive your correspondence, typos and all.

lumost 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Or its a simple signifier that the author was human, and that a real person is trying to convince you of something. I've experimented with putting minor grammar mistakes into my work of the sort that would be frowned upon, but are not strictly invalid. The existence of any kind of mistake makes the work sound "human".

MichaelZuo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Who said signalling would be limited to just 1 thing at a time?

farisa_lives 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's absolutely a power move, but it's also what happens when people are surrounded by sycophants who never correct them and will take time to decipher what they mean.

And over years, sloppy typing (forgivable) evolves into sloppy thinking.

tracker1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't necessarily think it's that... it's just a matter of a rush to respond/send quickly and not take a lot of time. It's pretty easy to either fat-finger when typing on a keyboard, or gesture input on a phone to get the wrong word and you hit send before realizing.

Sometimes I'll notice right after, delete and re-reply (social media) other times I'll just let it be... It's pedantic busy bodies that will single you out for a typo as opposed to discussing the idea at hand.

andai 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>It simply shows that you don't have to care about your mistakes.

Interesting, is that the equivalent of billionaires wearing sweatpants?

gabrielsroka 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> misstake

I see what you did there. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law

fractallyte 4 hours ago | parent [-]

A smelling pistake

anonymousiam an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's also St. John, which for some odd reason is pronounced as sinjin.

https://old.reddit.com/r/madmen/comments/12i3n9o/why_is_sain...

strotter 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In case you're wondering, Couch St. in Portland, Oregon, USA is pronounced "Cooch." It's named for 19th century ship captain and early businessman John H. Couch. It's the "C" street in the so-called Alphabet District north of Burnside, which is the "B" street. There are, or were, other landmarks named after Capt. Couch, but I'm not sure if any still exist.

z500 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's just centuries of change without updating spelling, a la Leicester or Worcester.

happymellon 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Pronunciation inconsistency is due to all the invasions.

You should watch Map Men.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uYNzqgU7na4

AdamN 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Same as Texans asking where Houston Street is in NYC.

woopwoop 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But Houston Street is older than Sam Houston, and was always pronounced that way.

steveklabnik 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And likewise, Austin has a bunch of names that are pronounced oddly.

jasondigitized 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Manchaca checking in

gosub100 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it the same reason as Worcestershire mapped to "wooster" ?

loloquwowndueo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Plymouth -> plee-mooth not ply-mouth

foobarian 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Outsider! :-)

More like PLIM-uth. I guess there is no way to write it unambiguously in English

loloquwowndueo an hour ago | parent [-]

Not outsider - non-native speaker.

drdec 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I hope you aren't talking about the one in Massachusetts which is not pronounced either of those ways

loloquwowndueo an hour ago | parent [-]

No, im talking about this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_(software)

gib444 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Plymouth, England is PLIM-uth

broken-kebab an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Did they? The article[1] seem to be in contradiction to the claim. For centuries it was rather easy to distinguish aristocracy without lingustic conspiracies. I'm really not an expert in British surnames however I know for sure that pop history is full of invented "fun facts" which are not true but persist cause they sound cool.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherstonhaugh

teachrdan 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's also the British penchant for deliberately mispronouncing French words. I have heard "renaissance" pronounced "reh-NAY-sance", "fillet" pronounced "fill-it", "valet" as "val-it" and so on. I think it's a national point of pride to pronounce the words of their neighbor incorrectly.

jpfromlondon 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

America is at least as guilty of mispronouncing non-english words it's just natural drift.

As to fillet and valet, they joined english before the contemporary french pronunciation, and are much closer to the middle-french.

rkomorn 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm always amused by some mispronunciations that stray farther away from the original than necessary.

My favorite is probably crepe, which Americans pronounce like an almost diphthong-y craype (or crape like grape I guess) when crep (like step) would do just fine and be closer to the original.

But as a native French and basically-native American speaker, I also couldn't really care less about it, or about things like Americans pronouncing the t in croissant, or French people being unable to say the.

tracker1 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The plural is what gets me though crepes (just sounds weird as krehps vs krayps).

rkomorn 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I kinda get it, but you can say step and stehps, not stayps, so why not krehps?

I say it the American way when I speak English anyway because that's just how it is. :)

dhosek an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’ve always said that one key difference between British English and American English is that a British speaker will intentionally mispronounce a foreign word, while an American will attempt to pronounce it correctly but get it wrong anyway.

djeastm 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>America is at least as guilty of mispronouncing non-english words it's just natural drift.

See also: Cairo, IL or Versailles, KY...

teachrdan 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Is the Illinois one the same pronunciation as "KAY-ro", Georgia?

tigerlily 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Notre Dame, IN

nobody9999 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Or Wilkes-Barre, PA

teachrdan 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Or Montpelier, VT!

sanswork 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Delhi, Ca -> Del-High

Fontainebleau State Park -> Fountain Blue State Park

These were two off the ones that really stood out from my travels.

unzadunza 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or Pueblo, Salida and Buena Vista CO

_0ffh 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Birmingham, AL

dogmatism 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Calais, ME

hnuser123456 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apparently, workers on the Gemini space program pronounced it "Jeh-mih-nee" back then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gemini#Pronunciation

OJFord 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Those are the standard British pronunciations, if you meant 'I have heard' as though it might be a niche or occasional occurrence. ('fill-ay' et al. are AmE pronunciations.)

It's not always that way though, consider 'niche': it's AmE that decided it's 'nitch'!

bloak 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Valet" and "cadet" is an interesting pair: they rhyme in French (/va.lɛ/ and /ka.dɛ/), but rhyming them in English would be ... unusual.

If there were just French words pronounced in a French way and English words which came from French and are now pronounced in an English way that would be bad enough but in fact we have a whole spectrum of bastardisation.

sebzim4500 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Interestingly in British english valet would rhyme with cadet if you were referring to a servant and not to someone who will park your car.

bluepeter 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yep. And try "lieutenant" or "herb" on for size. (Edit: I guess "herb" is a bit of a complex one... originally from Latin's "herba" where the H was pronounced, but from UK it came most immediately from French's "herbe" with no H sound. So UK did somehow shortcut back to a more original sound.)

fy20 5 hours ago | parent [-]

As a Brit, my understanding of the American pronunciation was from Italian immigrants in the US.

dfedbeef 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Oybs

gib444 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a national past time for us Brits to annoy the French. Kind of how two cousins who don't like each other would behave at a family gathering

mattmanser 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So this isn't the British being deliberate obtuse, foreigners pronounce English words wrong all the time and we don't accuse them of doing it on purpose. They do it because that's how they would pronounce those words in their language.

Fillet/valet are mis-pronounced because of mallet, pallet, etc. Renaissance? Nail, snail, tail, etc.

It really is that simple, we're just pronouncing them as if they were an English word.

FpUser 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Here in Toronto area city of Vaughan pronounced as (/vɔːn/ or /vɑːn/) like in "dawn" or "gone"

Imaging me fresh from USSR asking someone how do I get to ... and getting blank stare

bluepeter 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's great. What's also amusing is how you felt it necessary to provide the diacritical pronunciation guide for "Vaughan"... because I think to most native English speakers we can't imagine any other pronunciation!

FpUser 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think native English speaker who had never heard of Vaughan (sure we can find some of those) would likely to pronounce it like "Vog-un" - /ˈvɒɡən/ or "Vog-han" - /ˈvɑːɡən/

trollierworm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This sent me down a mental rabbit hole, I think it's one of those interesting nuances that are rules that native speakers follow without being able to name it, or know it. I'm a native speaker, and also thought `vawn` was the most obvious pronounciation. I'm guessing it's because `augh` is perceived as a recognizable vowel cluster where `gh` tends to be silent (daughter, caught, naught, taught). The interesting twist for me is that `laugh` is in obvious counter example, until I realized that gh in final position (laugh, rough, enough) is almost always \f\. And further, in words like laughter, roughness, we immediately distinguish a modified root word from the lexical position.

Maybe there's also an interesting thread to pull on in that the pattern may be more pronounced for names (e.g. Hughes). Just ruminating here though, I don't have a source for any of this.

b40d-48b2-979e 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, I don't think they would. I've never heard of Vaughan and assumed one syllable like the parent commenter.

SoftTalker 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No, "gh" is usually silent in English spelling.

toast0 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

augh is not as common as ough, but either one can make any sound in the whole syllabary.

How about Sequim, WA. Guess how to pronounciate that.

philiplu an hour ago | parent [-]

Or Puyallup, WA. Those two are definite shibboleth tests in the PNW.

jhauris 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Laugh, trough, tough, rough. Maybe it should be "Vawfan"

oblio 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Ghoul.

nayuki 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are a handful of neighborhood and street names used in Toronto (not necessarily from Toronto) that have unusual pronunciations. Here I'll give some triples of (English spelling, actual pronunciation (IPA), a naive pronunciation (IPA)):

(Yonge, [jʌŋ], [jɑndʒ]); (Strachan, [sdʒɹɑn], [ˈsdʒɹa.tʃæn]); (Tecumseth, [tə.ˈkʌm.zi], [ˈti.kəm.sɛθ]); (Markham, [ˈmɑr.kʌm], [ˈmɑrk.hæm]), (Etobicoke, [ɛ.ˈtoʊ.bɪ.koʊ], [ɛ.ˈtoʊ.bɪ.koʊk]).

See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2cyg6bFeRc , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PmeDWvwD8M

glitchc 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That's because some are Indigenous names phoneticized for English speakers (Yonge and Markham on the other hand are entirely English names):

Etobicoke. From Adobigok [1]

Tecumseh (or Tecumseth). From tecumtha or takhamehse [2]

Mississauga. From Misi-zaagiing [3]

[1] https://www.etobicokehistorical.com/brief-history-of-etobico...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga

rapnie 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a non-native English speaker I wonder if Leicester is naturally pronounced right for the natives, or has to be explicitly taught.

sanswork 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It has to be taught. Most english native speakers will say Lie-chester by default.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
loloquwowndueo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Typical in Toronto - remember there’s only one T in “Toronto”

madcaptenor 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's also only one T in "Atlanta". (For some people there are none.)

canucker2016 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

...and the first o is silent, and the remaining o's are pronounced 'a'.

But the TV news reporters enunciate every letter in Toronto.

FpUser 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

ROFL. I ignore this sacred rule

bitwize 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In New Orleans, protesters against outsiders acquiring and developing real estate hold up signs that read "Say Tchoupitoulas" (/ˌtʃɑp ə ˈtuː ləs/). I give my wife lots of hassle about the pronunciations of Louisiana place names like Tchoupitoulas, Natchitoches (/ˈnæk ə ˌdɪʃ/, really!), etc. especially when she complains about northeastern place names like "Leominster".

therein 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> in Portland we locals hear about misprouncing Couch St

That explains why many years ago when I visited Portland, a homeless guy corrected my pronunciation of that while we were walking past him.

jrflowers 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Note that you only pronounce Couch that way in Portland when talking about the street. You wouldn’t maintain the pronunciation when saying eg “Sorry for spilling wine on your couch”

stackghost 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Cholmondeley is "Chumley" Featherstonehaugh is "Fanshaw." If you read it phonetically you mark yourself as an outsider.

This is a monstrous crime against language.

throwaway94275 3 hours ago | parent [-]

well how do you say Newfoundland? Soon it will be said "Noovlan"

stackghost 2 hours ago | parent [-]

People from there generally pronounce it "New-fund-LAND", people from the rest of (english) Canada tend pronounce it "NEW-fund-land".

It's still got three syllables.