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frankfrank13 8 hours ago

Some insider knowledge: Lilli was, at least a year ago, internal only. VPN access, SSO, all the bells and whistles, required. Not sure when that changed.

McKinsey requires hiring an external pen-testing company to launch even to a small group of coworkers.

I can forgive this kind of mistake on the part of the Lilli devs. A lot of things have to fail for an "agentic" security company to even find a public endpoint, much less start exploiting it.

That being said, the mistakes in here are brutal. Seems like close to 0 authz. Based on very outdated knowledge, my guess is a Sr. Partner pulled some strings to get Lilli to be publicly available. By that time, much/most/all of the original Lilli team had "rolled off" (gone to client projects) as McKinsey HEAVILY punishes working on internal projects.

So Lilli likely was staffed by people who couldn't get staffed elsewhere, didn't know the code, and didn't care. Internal work, for better or worse, is basically a half day.

This is a failure of McKinsey's culture around technology.

OptionOfT 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Couple of things to add:

McKinsey has a weird structure where there are too many cooks in the kitchen.

Everybody there is reviewed on client impact, meaning it ends up being an everybody-for-themselves situation.

So as a developer you have little guidance (in fact, you're still being reviewed on client impact, even if you have 0 client exposure).

Then a (Senior) Partner comes in with this idea (that will get them a good review), and you jump on that. After all, it's all you can do to get a good review.

You work on it, and then the (Senior) Partner moves on. But it's not done. It's enough for the review, but continuing to work on it doesn't bring you anything, in fact, it will actually pull you down, as finishing the project doesn't give immediate client results.

So what does this mean? Most products of McKinsey are a grab-bag of raw ideas of leadership, implemented as a one-off, without a cohesive vision or even a long-term vision at all. It's all about the review cycle.

McKinsey is trying to do software like they do their other engagements. It doesn't work. You can't just do something for 6 months and then let it go. Software rots.

The fact that they laid off a good amount of (very good) software engineers in 2024 is a reflection on how they see software development.

And McKinsey's people, who go to other companies, take those ideas with them. Result: The UI of your project changes all the time, because everybody is looking at the short-term impact they have that gets them a good review, not what is best for the project in the long term.

itsnotme12 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Those comments are spot on.

McKinsey was on a spree to become the best tech consulting company and brought a lot of great tech talent but the 2023 crisis made leadership turn 180 and simply ditch/ignore all the tech experts they brought to the firm.

All the expertise has left the firm and now they are more and more becoming another BS tech consulting firm, with strategy folks that don't even know that ML is AI advising clients on Enterprise AI transformation.

The tech initiative was a failure and Lilli's problem is just a symptom of it.

I wonder what was the experience at Bain and BCG

two_tasty an hour ago | parent [-]

I previously worked at BCGX, their tech arm. It's not quite as bad as you point out here, but tech workers are very much second-class-citizens. There's a "jock" vs. "nerd" dynamic between BCG business consultants and BCGX tech folks, even at senior levels. I think it's changing, but it will take a long time and many technical folks being admitted to the partnership.

yard2010 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm far from being an expert, but it sounds like this company needs some consultancy.

munk-a 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Can McKinsey fund McKinsey by consulting for McKinsey? Could we oroborus corporate consulting so that those consultants could be trapped in a loop and those of us doing useful work wouldn't need to interact with them anymore?

gavinray 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why would anyone work there, then, unless that's the only place they could get hired as a dev?

And if the latter is the case, then that sort of stamps the case closed from the get-go...

dmbche 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Great money?

ng12 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

According to levels the pay band caps out around $250k and a principal title. It's good but probably not enough for most to put up with the culture long term.

john_strinlai 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>[...] the pay band caps out around $250k [...] probably not enough for most [...]

an absolutely wild statement to 99.9+% of the world

anonMcKinsey 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

99.9% of the world doesn't live in the US with a 4.0 GPA from a top ten university.

They're not very bright, most of them. But they're very hard workers and high achievers. They stay for the resume candy or the health care.

john_strinlai 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

>[...] US with a 4.0 GPA from a top ten university. They're not very bright, most of them.

the top students from the top ten universities in the US produce... mostly not very bright people?

this is getting even stranger to the rest of us plebians. sometimes i am left in awe of how different my world is from some of you here

dahcryn 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

When you get to partner level, you also get profit sharing on top of you salary.

Partners get 300-400k and senior partners get closer to 600-800

anonMcKinsey 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not really when you normalize by hours you are expected to work. You're also surrounded by spineless sycophantic keeners without an original thought in their heads who would throw you off the building for a good review.

It reminds me of Lewis' "National Institute for Co-ordinated Experiments"

The health care is amazing, though. $30/mo for a family $900 deductible? Something like that. If you have a sick family member it's a no brainer.

cmiles8 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not really relative to broader options in tech. The big money goes to the consulting leaders, but most of these folks look like glorified grifters more and more as time goes on.

Ultimately AI may be a big threat to the sort of “advisory” work McKinsey historically focused on.

steve1977 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> McKinsey is trying to do software like they do their other engagements. It doesn't work.

I mean, it doesn't work for their consulting gigs either. There's a reason McKinsey has such a bad reputation.

_doctor_love 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But it does work for them? They make tons of money.

steve1977 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, fair point. It doesn't work for their clients.

operatingthetan 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As an ex-consultant: consulting at that level is kind of a grift. They over-promise and under-deliver as SOP. It's ripe for AI disruption, whatever that looks like.

steve1977 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Ideally, executives will get replaced by AI soon. Which should actually be easier than engineers. That will kind of solve the consulting problem automatically.

Spooky23 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Their model works great.

It’s really about bypassing the existing power structure of the company. Competence of the work itself is a secondary objective. Most in-house initiatives can be slow rolled by management.

The fresh faced consultant with 2-3 steps to access the CEO neutralizes that. It seems grifty but is really exploiting bugs in corporate governance.

The current fad of firing the managers is a riff on this. Every jackass C-level is coming up with the novel idea of flattening.

steve1977 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This somehow implies that initiatives or strategies from consultants are somewhat successful. This is not the case in my experience.

entrox 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No, you misunderstood. It is not about their output, it almost never is.

Most of the times, the business decision has already been made long before McK is hired. It’s all about legitimizing that decision and making it happen.

You can also wield them as a weapon against internal competitors or opponents. Look up how they were used to kill off Cariad for example.

Spooky23 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

They reflect the will of the principal who hired them. Success is in the eye of the beholder.

cmiles8 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Net conclusion: Don’t hire McKinsey to advise on AI implementation or tech org design and practices if they can’t get it right themselves.

frankfrank13 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fair take, but you'd be hard pressed to find much resemblance to any advice McK gives to its own practices.

Pre-AI, I always said McK is good at analysis, if you need complicated analysis done, hire a consulting firm.

If you need strategy, custom software, org design, etc. I think you should figure out the analysis that needs to be done, shoot that off to a consulting firm, and then make your decision.

IME, F500 execs are delegation machines. When they wake up every morning with 30 things to delegate, and 25 execs to delegate to, they hire 5 consulting teams. Whether you hire Mck, or Deloitte, or Accenture will only come down to:

1. Your personal relationships

2. Your company's policies on procurement

3. Your budget

in that order.

McK's "secret sauce" is that if you, the exec, don't like the powerpoint pages Mck put in front of you, 3 try-hard, insecure, ivy-league educated analysts will work 80 hours to make pages you do like. A sr. partner will take you to dinner. You'll get invited to conferences and summits and roundtables, and then next time you look for a job, it will be easier.

decidu0us9034 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Analysis of what? What does that mean? What's something you conceivably would need a consulting firm to "analyze?" I don't understand why management consulting firms would hire software people in the first place, and then punish them for not being on a client-facing project. That seems a bit contradictory to me, but this is all way out of my wheelhouse

frankfrank13 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Analysis:

1. How do I build a datacenter

2. How is the industrial ceramic market structured, how do they perform

3. How does a changing environment impact life insurance

Strategy:

1. Should I build a datacenter

2. Should I invest in an industrial ceramics company

3. Should I divest my life insurance subsidiary

Specifically in the software world this would be "automate some esoteric ERP migration" or "build this data pipeline" vs. "how can we be more digital native" or "how do we integrate more AI into our company"

healthy_throw an hour ago | parent [-]

These look like questions you would give to AI in 2026.

cl0ckt0wer 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

For instance, what would we need to start offering siracha in our burger?

steve1977 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The only people who hire McKinsey are execs who are even more clueless than the consultants.

aleph_minus_one 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The executives who hire McKinsey are often not clueless, but they often lack the political power in the company to push through their plans. So they hire some well-regarded business consultancy to get an "objective" analysis what needs to be done.

bonoboTP 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How can it be that what you just wrote is such a widely known fact? I've been reading this and hearing this from consultancy people as well for many years now. If the guy lacks the political power, why don't his internal political opponents say, "nice try hiring the consultants, but we know this trick very well, you still don't get it your way".

It has to be some kind of higher level protection racket or something. Like if you hire the consultants there is some kind of kickbacks to the higherups or something with more steps involved where those who previously opposed it will now accept it if it's rubberstamped by the consultants.

Or perhaps those other players who are politically opposing this person are just dummies and don't know about this trick and actually trust the consultants. Or maybe it's a bit of a check, that you can't get anything and everything rubberstamped by the consultants, so it is some kind of sanity filter that the guy isn't proposing something that only benefits himself and screws everyone else.

And if it's the latter, then it is genuine value, a somewhat impartial second opinion. Basically there is a fog-of-war for all the execs regarding all the internal politics going on, it's not like they see through everything all the time and simply refuse to take the obviously correct decision for no reason.

treatmesubj 3 hours ago | parent [-]

if you don't have sufficient political clout or influence, you seek sponsorship or backing from others with it to accrue more influence for your idea. You can pay consultants to agree with your idea and produce pretty charts and whitepapers for it.

bonoboTP 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The question is, why does anyone take the word of a company seriously which will agree with any idea if you pay them? After several iterations of this game (decades by now), someone would surely say "nah, we don't care about these charts and whitepapers, we know that the company who made them will agree with anything for money, so it's still a NO"

My hunch is that in fact they won't agree with just any idea. There is a limit to how extreme the idea can get, though probably the filter is indeed weak. Still, without this filter, people would propose even wilder ideas that maximize their own expected payoff at the expense of other players, so just the fact that it has to be signed off by an external party is still enough information for the powerful decision makers that they are willing to fund their services.

steve1977 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my experience, McKinsey often gets brought in from the very top - who should be able to push through more or less what they want. They just want a scapegoat in case things go wrong.

rgblambda 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The version I've heard is that you can pin the blame on the consultants if it goes wrong.

m4rtink 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This can be simplified further: "Don't hire McKinsey." ;-)

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
eisa01 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe it was opened up so it could be used in recruiting?

McKinsey challenges graduates to use AI chatbot in recruitment overhaul: https://www.ft.com/content/de7855f0-f586-4708-a8ed-f0458eb25...

j45 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Using a 2 year old paradigm.

And require a chatbot to be used that can be easily gamed by asking a model of how best to navigate it lol.

Implementing the past of AI practices is requesting something that will be easily outdone.

dahcryn 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

is this the same at quantumblack? They at least give the impression their assets on Brix are somewhat up to date and uesable

itsnotme12 2 hours ago | parent [-]

QB is no more, leadership left, technical experts left. Just the brand stayed behind.

j45 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am not sure what accounting or management consulting firms are doing in tech.

They look to package up something and sell it as long as they can.

AI solutions won't have enough of a shelf life, and the thought around AI is evolving too quickly.

Very happy to be wrong and learn from any information folks have otherwise.

fidotron 7 hours ago | parent [-]

The purpose of hiring them is to make them come to the conclusion you already have, so when it goes well you get the credit for doing it, or if it goes sideways you can pin the blame on them.

boringg 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Or, alternatively, there are so many companies that are weak on tech they pay for someone else to guide them.

frankfrank13 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah its more this, the companies who ask Mck's help in software tend to hire contractors or vend out software already.

apercu 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Most companies are not _just_ tech companies and don't have business analysts, consulting analysts, solutions consultants, software engineers and DBA's on staff.

Many, many, many companies are very happy with the consulting firms they hire.

Of course, those are the consulting firms that aren't publicly traded and in the news all the time (for all the wrong reasons).