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freedomben 7 hours ago

Perhaps it's a cynical way to look at it, but in the days of the war on general purpose computing, and locked-down devices, I have to consider the news in terms of how it could be used against the users and device owners. I don't know enough to provide useful analysis so I won't try, but instead pose as questions to the much smarter people who might have some interesting thoughts to share.

There are two, non-exclusive paths I'm thinking at the moment:

1. DRM: Might this enable a next level of DRM?

2. Hardware attestation: Might this enable a deeper level of hardware attestation?

gpapilion 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just to level set here. I think its important to realize this is really focused on allowing things like search to operate on encrypted data. This technique allows you to perform an operation on the data without decrypting it. Think a row in a database with email, first, last, and mailing address. You want to search by email to retrieve the other data, but don't want that data unencrypted since it is PII.

In general, this solution would be expensive and targeted at data lakes, or areas where you want to run computation but not necessarily expose the data.

With regard to DRM, one key thing to remember is that it has to be cheap, and widely deployable. Part of the reason dvds were easily broken is that the algorithm chosen was inexpensive both computationally, so you can install it on as many clients as possible.

egorfine 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> how it could be used against the users and device owners

Same here.

Can't wait to KYC myself in order to use a CPU.

observationist 3 hours ago | parent [-]

KYC = Kill Your Conscience

It's truly amazing how modern people just blithely sacrifice their privacy and integrity for no good reason. Just to let big tech corporations more efficiently siphon money out of the market. And then they fight you passionately when you call out those companies for being unnecessarily invasive and intrusive.

The four horsemen of the infocalypse are such profoundly reliable boogeymen, we really need a huge psychological study across all modern cultures to see why they're so effective at dismantling rational thought in the general public, and how we can innoculate society against it without damaging other important social behaviors.

bigbuppo 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

They probably meant "know your customer", you know, where you have to submit to an anal probe to think about getting a bank account and withdrawing more than $8 of cash at a time will trigger a suspicious activity report for money laundering/tax evasion while the Epstein class are getting away with the most heinous crimes possible.

xeonmc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-05-27

Frieren 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> how it could be used against the users

We are not anymore their clients, we are just another product to sell. So, they do not design chips for us but for the benefit of other corporations.

3. Unskippable ads with data gathering at the CPU level.

dimitrios1 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I distinctly remember from university in one of my more senior classes designing logic gates, chaining together ands, nands, ors, nors, xors, and then working our way up to numerical processors, ALUs, and eventually latches, RAM, and CPUs. The capstone was creating an assembly to control it all.

I remember how thinking how fun it was! I could see unfolded before me how there would be endless ways to configure, reconfigure, optimize, etc.

I know there are a few open source chip efforts, but wondering maybe now is the time to pull the community together and organize more intentionally around that. Maybe open source chipsets won't be as fast as their corporate counterparts, but I think we are definitely at an inflection point now in society where we would need this to maintain freedom.

If anyone is working in that area, I am very interested. I am very green, but still have the old textbooks I could dust off (just don't have the ole college provided mentor graphics -- or I guess siemens now -- design tool anymore).

linguae 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I was just thinking about this a few days ago, but not just for the CPU (which we have RISC-V and OpenPOWER), but for an entire system, including the GPU, audio, disk controllers, networking, etc. I think a great target would be mid-2000s graphics and networking; I could go back to a 2006 Mac Pro without too much hardship. Having a fully-open equivalent to mid-2000s hardware would be a boon for open computing.

matheusmoreira 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's no point. The big chip makers control all the billion dollar fabs. Governments and corporations can easily dictate terms. We'll lose this battle unless we develop a way to cheaply fabricate chips in a garage.

The future is bleak.

officeplant 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sounds like you might want to go play with RISC-V, either in hardware or emulation.

F7F7F7 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When we are at the point where society feels the need that privacy means encryption at compute ... a product like this (or anything else in the supply chain) is not going to save them.

youknownothing 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think it's applicable to DRM because you eventually need the decrypted content: DRM is typically used for books, music, video, etc., you can't enjoy an encrypted video.

I think eGovernment is the main use case: not super high traffic (we're not voting every day), but very high privacy expectations.

freedomben 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes it must be decrypted eventually, but I've read about systems (I think HDMI does this) where the keys are stored in the end device (like the TV or monitor) that the user can't access. Given that we already have that, I think I agree that this news doesn't change anything, but I wonder if there are clever uses I haven't thought of

NegativeLatency 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Rent out your spare compute, like seti@home or folding@home, but it’s something someone could repackage and sell as a service.

benlivengood 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

1. The private key is required to see anything computed under FHE, so DRM is pretty unlikely.

2. No, anyone can run the FHE computations anywhere on any hardware if they have the evaluation key (which would also have to be present in any FHE hardware).

ddtaylor 2 hours ago | parent [-]

HDCP does some of that already in many of your devices.

amelius 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm also thinking of what happens when quantum computing becomes available.

But when homomorphic encryption becomes efficient, perhaps governments can force companies to apply it (though they would lose their opportunity for backdooring, but E2EE is a thing too so I wouldn't worry too much).

gruez 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47323743

It's not related to DRM or trusted computing.

inetknght 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Not yet.

gruez 6 hours ago | parent [-]

What does that even mean?

A: "Intel/AMD is adding instructions to accelerate AES"

B: "Might this enable a next level of DRM? Might this enable a deeper level of hardware attestation?"

A: "wtf are you talking about? It's just instructions to make certain types of computations faster, it has nothing to do with DRM or hardware attestation."

B: "Not yet."

I'm sure in some way it probably helps DRM or hardware attestation to some extent, but not any more than say, 3nm process node helps DRM or hardware attestation by making it faster.

evolve2k 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My thought is half cynical. As LLM crawlers seek to mop up absolutely everything, companies themselves start to worry more about keeping their own data secret. Maybe this is a reason for shifts like this; as encrypted and other privacy-preserving products become more in demand across the board.

mathgradthrow 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, because of the fundamental limitation of DRM. Content must be delivered as plaintext.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
observationist 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Regarding DRM, You could use stream ciphers and other well understood cryptography schemes to use a FHE chip like this to create an effectively tamper-proof and interception proof OS, with the FHE chip supplementing normal processors. You'd basically be setting up e2ee between the streaming server and the display, audio output, or other stream target, and there'd be no way to intercept or inspect unencrypted data without breaking the device. Put in modern tamper detection and you get a very secure setup, with modern performance, and a FHE chip basically just handling keys and encapsulation operations, fairly low compute and bandwidth needs. DRM and attestation both, as well as fairly dystopian manufacturer and corporate controls over devices users should own.

KoolKat23 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is quite the opposite, better than we have.

It raises the hurdle for those looking to surveil.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

This is primarily for cloud compute I'd imagine, AI specifically. As it's generally not feasible/possible to run the state of the art models locally. Think GDPR and data sovereignty concerns, many demand privacy and can't use services without it.

vasco 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Regarding DRM I don't see how it'll survive "Camera in front of the screen" + "AI video upscaling" once the second part is good enough. Can't DRM between the screen and your eyes. Until they put DRM in Neuralink.

RiverCrochet 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Can't DRM between the screen and your eyes.

No, but media can be watermarked in imperceptible ways, and then if all players are required to check and act on such watermarks, the gap becomes narrow enough to probably be effective.

See Cinavia.