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hananova 17 hours ago

I can't fathom all the rage and confusion here about these laws. It's been a well-known effect since forever that when a government deems that something needs to be done, they'll go for the first "something-shaped" solution.

This all could've been avoided. Governments all over the world have been ringing the alarm bells about lack of self-regulation in tech and social media. And instead of doing even a minimum of regulation, anything to calm or assuage the governments, the entire industry went balls-to-the-wall "line go up" mode. We, collectively, only have ourselves to blame, and now it's too late.

If you look back, it didn't have to be this way: - Governments told game publishers to find a system to handle age rating or else. The industry developed the ESRB (and other local systems), and no "or else" happened. - Governments told phone and smart device manufacturers to collectively standardize on a charging standard, almost everyone agreed on USB-C and only many years later did the government step in and force the lone outlier to play ball. If that one hadn't been stubborn, there wouldn't have been a law.

The industry had a chance to do something practical, the industry chose not to, and now something impractical (but you better find a way anyway, or else) will be forced upon them. And I won't shed a tear for the poor companies finally having to do something.

shevy-java 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> We, collectively, only have ourselves to blame, and now it's too late.

Why would we have to be blamed for a law written by some lobbyists? That makes no sense at all. There are of course some folks that are in favour of this because "of the children" but their rationale does not apply to me nor to many other people. Why should they be able to force people to surrender their data, with the operating system becoming a sniffer giving out private data to everyone else? That makes no sense.

hananova 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Because the government has a monopoly on violence and enforcement of the law. That’s why they can force you. If you don’t like it, move somewhere else.

Also, the uproar here is hilarious, because many people here literally get paid to work on privacy-destruction-machines. But now that the government is the one doing it, it’s suddenly bad. Give me a break.

And yes, I can say that my conscience is clear. I may not be rich, I may have had to quit two jobs and spend two years homeless because I did not want to implement immoral or unethical code. But my conscience is clear.

pear01 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The invocation of "lobbyists" in this context is meaningless. People lobby for all kinds of things. Doesn't really matter once it becomes a law anyway.

If people could just say I don't agree with this law, it "makes no sense" and it's written by "lobbyists" and the government should not "be able to force" me to comply then we don't have a society anymore.

You had better come up with some better arguments otherwise it just seems like the typical sad case of the losing side suddenly griping about the referee's monopoly of force when it's no longer going their way...

The comment you replied to rightly pointed out one way of getting ahead of said monopoly of force is addressing problems with the status quo before the state takes an interest. It didn't happen, and now you will probably get some heavy handed intervention. But ignoring this basic point to ask why oh why suggests an ignorance of the very nature of the society that is and has been constantly regulating you.

If you only happened to notice now you should consider yourself a rather lucky specimen in the long line of human history, full of those remarking "this makes no sense" as they are nonetheless compelled to comply.

rudhdb773b 15 hours ago | parent [-]

The fact that lobbyists push the law is in fact very meaningful. It means that a minority with power is trying to tip the scales in their favor against the otherwised unbiased will of the majority.

To extend your analogy, it's not one side complaining after a fair match, it's them complaining that refs have been paid off.

pear01 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is no such thing as an "unbiased will of the majority".

That sort of terminology might have flown back in the 18th century with Rousseau and the like speaking of a "general will" but in today's era of social science, it has about as much force as invoking divinity.

Everyone has bias. The idea of a general will is largely fiction and was discredited at the time.

Our system is based on coercion, costs and trade-offs and nothing more. That is human history. You may have some rights (perhaps a right to privacy, it is debatable) but this is really just the three core components dressed up in reverse. The freedom of speech for instance is simply to codify the idea that the state silencing you is intolerable. Intolerable is eventually meaningless unless it is backed up by costs and coercion against the state which they will seek to avoid.

When the state violates such "rights" flagrantly sometimes the people are called to manifest this aspect of "intolerable".

That's what a revolution is.

Failing that you need to convince people. And in so doing if you aim to find some "unbiased will of the majority" you are wasting your time.

You would be better off with a lobbyist. Surely such a person would not so readily engage in such fiction regarding how democracy actually works, and would thus be more effective in achieving your goals.

mlrtime 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Lobbyists do not always mean minority. I'm sure it looks like that from the outside.

There are all kinds of laws that people don't like, me included. With every law there will be some winner/loser trade-off (for lack of better word). As OP said, that is society.

If the people here were so passionate about it, they would help come up with a better solution, not a "f* off" comment.

Jean-Papoulos 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We, collectively, only have ourselves to blame, and now it's too late.

Can't believe I'm reading this. I don't want age verification at all, whether it's self-imposed or not. I should be free to use whatever tools I want however I want.

ray_v 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Someone else posted this in the thread, by it pretty much sums it up - Vae victis.

We somehow lost the war of freedom of privacy ... or, maybe the battle still rages

charcircuit 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Democracy is not about what you want. If the majority want something you don't, the best you can do is find a compromise. There is no option of doing nothing and keep computers the same as they have been if the majority want change.

wao0uuno 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But does the majority want that change? If they want it, are they entirely aware of its potential impact on their freedom of speech and access to information? Or were they conditioned to think it's good for them because well funded corporate entities and governments spend money on promoting that image? Democracy does not work when majority is stupid and uneducated because people like that are easily controlled. I wish we were putting as much resources into education as we're putting into cheap entertainment and ads/marketing.

gzread 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The vast majority wants a parental control setting on the kid's device, and that's what is being imposed in California and Colorado right now.

The vast majority don't want to upload their passports. That's what we should be opposing. Standardized parental controls set by the device owner are a great alternative and not invasive at all.

Hizonner 7 hours ago | parent [-]

There are parental control settings on most of the devices kids have right now. Most parents don't use them (https://fosi.org/parental-controls-for-online-safety-are-und...) . Where's your vast majority?

By the way, that does not imply that they're "underutilized". That part of the article is pure opinion.

labcomputer 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Err... "Most" is doing some heavy lifting here. 51% of parents do use parental controls on their kid's tablets, and 47% on smartphones.

And there's no breakdown by age. Kids don't magically become able to handle the uncensored internet the day they turn 18.

Did it ever occur to you that parents who don't use restrictions maybe have kids that are almost 18? Or parents of kids who have shown themselves to be responsible? Or that the parents use other methods to restrict use (like only allowing supervised use with the parent for very young children)?

mlrtime 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>But does the majority want that change

This really depends on 1) How you frame the problem/solution and 2) what subset of people you ask.

But to answer your question, I could easily see that yes, people want a "change" based on how you frame the problem.

iamnothere 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well maybe democracy has had its day then, if that’s where all this leads.

The founders were right to try and enshrine some protections against unrestricted democracy in the Bill of Rights.

muyuu 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

that is why democracy ends at property

vaylian 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The industry had a chance to do something practical, the industry chose not to

Wrong. There was no choice. Any type of identification technology causes more problems than it solves. The right choice is to look for different approaches than identification technology for solving the problems. And as the article points out, the problems are best tackled with education and not with tech.

kortilla 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Speak for yourself. This is impacting open source and is fundamentally against the open source ethos.

Governments demanding computers enforce age is as dumb as governments demanding books, pen, and paper enforce age.

This is unrelated to industry. This is idiots running the government.

dpe82 17 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm probably missing something, but when I read the California statute I didn't understand it to be anything like "computers enforcing age" - more like, when you create an account it needs to ask your age, and then provide a system API by which apps can ask what bracket the account holder is in. This seems better than the current solution of every app asking independently?

Again, I'm probably missing something but it strikes me as pretty trivial to comply with?

ball_of_lint 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The government really shouldn't be telling us how/what we can compute at all.

But on this specific point - It's a bellwether. They're doing this to lay the groundwork and test the waters for compulsory identification and/or age verification. Getting MacOS and Windows and Linux and etc to implement this WILL be used as evidence that compulsory identity verification for computer use is legally workable.

ball_of_lint 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And if the implications of that aren't clear - that would either be unenforceable or be in effect a government rootkit+DRM on every device.

charcircuit 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>The government really shouldn't be telling us how/what we can compute at all.

You could say the same thing about restaurants. "The government really shouldn't be telling us how/what we can cook at all."

When you are selling a product to the public, that is something that people have decided the government can regulate to reduce the harms of such products.

hellojesus 6 hours ago | parent [-]

What if you aren't selling a product, like open source linux distros?

labcomputer 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Last time I checked, health code regulations still apply to kitchens serving homeless people for free.

akersten 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Being "trivial to comply with" is completely disjunct and not at all an argument against "this type of law is fundamentally at odds with the liberty and self-determination that open source projects require and should protect." It's a shot across the bow to open-source, it's literally the government telling you what code your computer has to run. It is gesturing in the direction of existential threat for Free software and I am not exaggerating. It's purposefully "trivial" so you don't notice or protest too much that this is the first time the State is forcing you to include something purely of their own disturbed ideation in your creative work.

gzread 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Free software is already mandated to do a lot of things, like not defraud the user. If you make a bitcoin wallet that sends 5% of your money to the developer without asking I'm pretty sure you'll be prosecuted, so the government is compelling you to ask the user for consent to do that.

When you make food you're compelled to write the ingredients. We tolerate these because they are obvious and trivial, but pedantically, food labelling laws also violate the first amendment.

akersten 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> Free software is already mandated to do a lot of things, like not defraud the user.

Surely you recognize the difference between "you cannot go out of your way to do crime" and "your software must include this specific feature"??

> When you make food you're compelled to write the ingredients.

Well, the point about how this affects open source is that under a similar California law, every home kitchen would need to be equipped with an electronic transponder whose purpose is to announce to the world what ingredient bucket you used for tonight's casserole.

gzread 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Which part of the California law announces your browsing history to the world?

brabel 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If that’s true, I think the law is fine. There are good solutions for anonymous disclosure of information about you, the most mature being Verifiable Credentials, which is an open standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verifiable_credentials

You can disclose just a subset of a credential, and that can be a derived value (eg age bracket instead of date of birth), and a derived key is used so that its cryptographically impossible to track you. I wish more people discussed using that, but I suspect that it’s a bit too secure for their real intentions.

AnthonyMouse 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In general, any proposal to use government ID for "age verification" over the internet is going to end in someone using it for mass surveillance, and it's probably not wrong to suspect that as the intention to begin with.

There is no benefit in doing that because parents already know how old their kid is. They don't need the government to certify it to them, and then they can configure the kid's device not to display adult content.

Involving government ID is pointless because the parent, along with the large majority of the general population, has an adult ID, and therefore has the ability to configure the kid's device to display adult content or not even in the presence of an ID requirement if that's what they want to do. At which point an ID requirement is nothing but a footgun to "accidentally" compromise everyone's privacy. Unless that was the point.

gzread 11 hours ago | parent [-]

The California and Colorado laws don't involve any ID.

AnthonyMouse 7 hours ago | parent [-]

And those are better than the ones that do involve ID, which also exist, but not as good as the thing where the service tells your device the rating of the content instead of the user telling the service their age.

gzread 7 hours ago | parent [-]

How would that work when the service has mixed content? You'd have to go to kids.facebook.com to get the child-friendly version? With a client-sent signal they can just filter it, the same way Accept-Language can automatically translate the UI.

AnthonyMouse 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Elements that contain adult content are tagged and then the user agent doesn't display them.

This also has the extremely useful benefit of making you aware that something is being censored, because then it has a censorship box in place of the content. Whenever censorship is happening it should be flagrantly conspicuous rather than invisible.

hellojesus 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

But why do we need it at the os level? Couldn't a parent just set a header in the browser for their kid and be done with it?

labcomputer 5 hours ago | parent [-]

What happens when the kid installs a different browser?

hellojesus 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreed. Which is why I think the OS level is dumb. Kids can just live boot or launch a vm or keylog their parents' account.

If it's windows, they can just live boot into the OS and get access to pretty much all the files anyway, if the parent didn't encrypt things.

My point is, if the implementation is trivial to bypass, why do we need this legislation? Just let the parents use the existing tools we have and parent.

dpe82 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It doesn't even need to be that complicated. OS asks you your birthday at setup time. Stores it. Later, an app asks whether the user falls into one of the following brackets:

A) under 13 years of age, or B) at least 13 years of age and under 16 years of age, or C) at least 16 years of age and under 18 years of age or D) at least 18 years of age.

that's it. The OS can decide how it wants to implement that, but personally I'd literally just do get_age_bracket_enum(now() - get_user_birthday());

The bill is here: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

The uproar seems to be extremely overblown.

gzread 11 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the uproar comes because the well is already poisoned. People are already trained to respond with an outburst of anger to any law that mentions the age of the user, and will find excuses to rationalize that outburst, even when the law isn't that bad.

I mean, "compelled speech"? Really? That's people's argument? This is about as bad as the government compelling you to write a copyright notice.

iamnothere 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Compelled speech is bad and it’s something we don’t do, at all. All kinds of bad things come with compelled speech. Mandatory loyalty oaths, erosion of the fifth amendment, compelled work to weaken encryption, etc.

The well should be poisoned. The whole idea is poison.

marssaxman 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"because we didn't do a stupid and pointless thing, now we are being forced to do a stupid and pointless thing, therefore we are to blame"

Uh, no.

panny 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>We, collectively, only have ourselves to blame, and now it's too late.

No, "we" really don't. I wrote software. It's free. You're welcome to use it, or not. Nobody is forcing my software on you. You are not allowed to tell me that the software I wrote, for free, and gave to you, for free, needs to have features that I don't care about.

You have an LLM now. I'm obsolete now, right? Do it. Build your nerfed distro, and make it popular. Oh, yeah... there isn't a single solitary disto built by an LLM, is there? Not even one. Wow. I wonder why...

hananova 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

I’m not sure why you’re bringing up LLMs at all. I’m very anti-AI, so you’re barking up the wrong tree.

Either way, your first paragraph is irrelevant. If your local law says that your software needs to obey some law, then it has to, and that’s that. You can whine all you want about privacy and freedom, but the law is the law.