| ▲ | duxup a day ago |
| Absolutely absurd that we’re at this point. The courts / SCOTUS let the government roll out a massive and obviously illegal tax on citizens for a long time. They should have stepped in earlier. Now we the people probably don’t get our money back…. |
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| ▲ | suzdude a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| courts / SCOTUS let the government roll out a massive and obviously illegal tax on citizens for a long time. The don't forget about congress. 216 GOP congressional reps voted to handicap congress's ability to halt tariffs. For much of the current session of congress, their calendar wasn't counting days. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/house-republicans-block-con... |
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| ▲ | pnt12 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is a tactic I'm seeing more in politics. When it's in the interests of a group for something to pass, but they don't want the blame, they can abstain or defer. It still goes through and if it goes wrong they can argue it's not their fault. Win/win for them. |
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| ▲ | epolanski a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Absolutely absurd that we’re at this point. It's not really, this is the result of having a flawed democratic system. What do Turkey, Philippines, Russia, Belarus, Hungary, Nicaragua, etc and now US have all in common? They are ALL presidential or semi-presidential republics where a single person "rules" without needing to face opposition in a parliament nor even requiring support from its own party. Winner-takes-all democracies, aren't democracies if only part of the electors is represented in the executive. Presidential republics are super dangerous, they combine the perils of dictatorships with a cherry on the cake of being able to claim popular mandate. Seriously, it's not a coincidence that the last parliamentary republic to turn into an authocracy has been Sri Lanka 50+ years ago. |
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| ▲ | ianburrell 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Hungary is a parliamentary republic, Orban is the Prime Minister. Turkey was parliamentary system until was changed in 2017 to presidential system with more power for Erdogan. I agree about parliamentary systems being better, but they are still vulnerable. It doesn't matter if the electorate is in favor of strongman. | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Parliamentary systems have a very hard time strategizing in especially larger countries. |
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| ▲ | fc417fc802 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > where a single person "rules" without needing to face opposition in a parliament nor even requiring support from its own party But that doesn't describe the US right now. The problem is that the GOP is providing at least enough support to enable the behavior that we currently see. If congress as a whole wanted to stop things they could. I actually quite like the US system but the combination of first past the post voting and party politics appear increasingly likely to strangle us. | | |
| ▲ | wombatpm 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | The founders never imagined a coequal branch of government voluntarily giving up its power. | | |
| ▲ | Nevermark 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Actually, they were aware of the threat. Several framers of the constitution expressed deep concerns about the potential for coordinated non-governmental "factions" taking over government via elections. Unfortunately, despite going to great efforts to limit power centralization internally, concerns of external centralization were not heeded and there are no limits on the coordination of the US government via non-governmental organizations such as parties. This might have been a prophesy: > Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of Party are sufficient to make it the interest and the duty of a wise People to discourage and restrain it. > It serves always to distract the Public Councils and enfeeble the Public administration. It agitates the Community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. > [Omitted here, but at this point he worries that even a foreign country could weaponize a party to take control of the country, via elections.] > There is an opinion that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the Administration of the Government and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true, and in Governments of a Monarchical cast Patriotism may look with endulgence, if not with layout, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched; it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest instead of warming it should consume. -- George Washington [0] States used to operate independently enough that the same party in different counties and states might have varied views. But today, both parties have become highly centralized and homogenous from local to federal levels. Now intensely centralized themselves, they are well prepared to each compete to centralize government as an extension of a single party. And given it has become relatively easy to do so, the incentives are now there for parties to treat elections as war, and party control of government as the highest priority policy at all times. Incentives don't mean it has to happen, but ... well we know how that goes. The winner take all elements, where a party that gains a power edge over the other is in a better position to entrench themselves further, if not permanently, are also in play. When competition for power devolves into a dichotomy of complete wins or losses, the most powerful decision makers spend their time continually competing, with little attention left for concerns about competent governance or the public's well being. The current state of the unchecked US party system is the number one problem for the country. As all other problems migrate downstream from it. The biggest problem isn't "which" party gains control. The problem is that any party could ever obtain majority control in all three branches. [0] https://www.loc.gov/resource/mgw2.024/?sp=241&st=text |
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| ▲ | Saline9515 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | France has arguably the most presidential regime of the OECD, while it's not without faults it's not horrible either. Parliamentary regimes optimize for coalition stability which weakens them and forces to always take the path of least resistance, which isn't usually the best one. | | |
| ▲ | epolanski 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Parliamentary regimes optimize for coalition stability which weakens them and forces to always take the path of least resistance, which isn't usually the best one. This is good: we live in objectively good times and safe/wealthy countries where problems are relatively minor and we should focus on debating and compromising, not having know-it-all unbounded captains. Our first focus is risk management: not having systems that make it easy for the Putin/Erdogan and Trump-like individual to ruin everything. | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Well it depends : you can easily slip into a "tyranny of the majority" setup where the parties in power don't need to accommodate the needs of the minority. Also if your regime is optimized for solving minor issues, it will have a hard time when there are important ones. In general, there is no silver bullet, and as Solon (creator of the first constitution in the Antiquity) put it, each country will need a custom regime to fit its specific culture and society. |
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| ▲ | stefan_ 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know about that, somehow Macron is still around. Who knows what he will come up with to extend his time while having zero support. | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Macron is still around because France is a presidential regime and he can't be removed. |
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| ▲ | cyberax 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The US is special. It's a true federative nation, with a fairly weak federal government and strong individual states. So the president actually does not have a lot of power inside the country. He can't just fire the governor of Minnesota or unilaterally cut funds to a state that he doesn't like. But the foreign policy is where the president's authority is outsized. So that's why Trump is so focused on it, it's one of the few areas that he can directly control. |
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| ▲ | Jeremy1026 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > probably Hah, we are 100% not getting our money back. And the higher, tariff level, prices aren't going to go back down either. |
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| ▲ | snarf21 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It is almost as if this was a planned wealth transfer that was immensely succesful. | |
| ▲ | intrasight a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The "Importer of Record" gets the refund. I read that a large fraction of those importer of record are Chinese companies. | | |
| ▲ | adriand 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | According to Ryan Peterson, the CEO of Flexport, there was a large increase in the number of foreign companies registered as the "importer of record" in the US as a result of the tariffs. On the Odd Lots podcast, he stated this was due to fraud: companies set up subsidiary corps in the US, which then imported goods from their parent/sibling/related companies at much lower prices than market value. Because tariffs are a percentage of the value, this made them lower. Then the subsidiary could turn around and sell it in the US at market rates. | |
| ▲ | Jeremy1026 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, but when the product costs went up to cover their fees who paid that? We did. So the "Importer of Record" will (maybe) get a refund from the government, while also getting the higher prices paid to them from the distributors/consumers. | | |
| ▲ | vuln a day ago | parent [-] | | yes scotus hates poors and is complete bought out by the rich |
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| ▲ | superxpro12 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | read from where? Because over 92% of tariff costs were born by domestic importers. Thats american companies who then offload that tax through higher purchasing costs. https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2026/02/who-is... | | |
| ▲ | loeg 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We have Chinese businesses that are domestic importers. (To some extent, this was to facilitate tariff fraud. As an American business buying abroad, your foreign supplier would take over responsibility for importing into the US, and then you could pretend you were unaware it was fraudulently undervaluing its imports to lower effective tariffs paid. Any possible consequences for the foreign entity getting caught doing fraud are minimal.) | |
| ▲ | intrasight a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That article doesn't even mention nonresident importers (NRIs). The percentage that are NRIs is not public information but it is believed to have grown during this trade conflict. What got my attention on this was this HN comment by rstuart4133: "There are Non-Resident Importers, which are foreign companies that import goods into the USA, but do not have a presence in the United States. About 15% of USA imports come through NRIs. For them this reversal sets up a true irony. Trump effectively forced US citizens to pay more the imported goods. He thought that money would go to the USA treasury. Now the US treasury has to pay it back, so it is a free gift to the exporting countries. Like China. Truly delicious." |
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| ▲ | aarnii 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think it's practically impossible, and like you said, even worse prices are not going back down. Companies tested elasticity and most of them will increase revenue since the pricing is generalized, all competitors did it at once. | |
| ▲ | jlarocco a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, most of us absolutely are not getting our money back. The importers pay the tariffs, and they might get a refund, but it's unlikely they can distribute the money back to the people who they passed the price increase onto. Imagine I imported 1 ton of rice and paid the tariff. Then I split that ton of rice into 2000 one pound bags and sold them to two super markets, with a higher price accounting for the tariff. Then one super market decided to absorb the price from their margins and sell it at the same price as before to avoid price shocks. Can I track down the other 1000 purchasers who paid a higher price? Is it even worth it? | | |
| ▲ | xp84 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Not only can’t you track down the 1,000 rice buyers, you don’t have any legal obligation to, so you 100% wouldn’t. (Not speaking of “you” just the general case of all importers who get refunds). | |
| ▲ | tzs 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you wanted to pass the refund on wouldn't the most sensible way be to pass it on to the two supermarkets since they were the actual buyers from you? If the supermarket that raised prices wants to pass that on to their 1000 buyers that would be for them to deal with, not you. | |
| ▲ | warkdarrior a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The other important point is that those 2000 one-pound bags sold, so the market accepted the new higher price. Even after the tariffs are removed, the higher prices are here to stay. |
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| ▲ | commandlinefan a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Did they actually raise prices, though? I haven't noticed any significant jumps; my understanding was that they were absorbing (for the most part) the tariffs for the time being, but planned to raise prices in the near future. | | |
| ▲ | SunshineTheCat a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Tariffs don't work like that. These are taxes that businesses have to pay and as a result, they pass on to the consumer. Larger companies have some room (in some cases) to absorb some of these costs. While smaller companies do not. These can literally put people out of business overnight. Here is a specific example: https://nypost.com/2025/04/08/us-news/idaho-business-owner-c... | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Average family paid 1000 more last year due to tariffs. I definitely noticed things that jumped in price. | | |
| ▲ | superxpro12 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | A large cap company I totally dont work at paid 4% of revenue in tariffs last year. Our bonuses were cut in half. I dont have visibility into our customer pricing. It is fucking obscene how stupid this tax is. And all for what? So billionaires can get a bit richer? How did this help us, like at all??? | | |
| ▲ | zuminator 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | All this fuckery makes it hard to keep track of financial inflows and outflows, which in turn makes it easy to commit graft and corruption. Especially coupled with the forced retirement of those principled people formerly in bureaucratic positions, and the lack of consequences for lying and scheming on behalf of the kleptocracy. | |
| ▲ | warkdarrior a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Judge actions by their outcomes, not by their stated purpose. | | |
| ▲ | r2_pilot 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | POSIWID, the Purpose Of a System Is What It Does. A quick way to cut through bullshit and "But I meant for X to do Y" |
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| ▲ | thingscoledoes a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Source? | | |
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| ▲ | throwaway667555 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Look at the CPI chart and draw a trend line ignoring recent years. You'll see we're living under 2034 price levels currently. | |
| ▲ | stevenwoo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It depends on if one thinks 10-20 percent is significant. Do you cook your own food - some food items are imported during USA winter months and those items went up noticeably, also items that are not grown/harvested in significant quantities in USA went up. The only things I did not see a price increase were US sourced oatmeal, rice and flour, stuff where they are selling stuff that could be from before tariff times. Coffee went up due to bad harvests but the tariffs added to that, and now that harvests are back to normal, prices haven't gone back down commensurately. | |
| ▲ | Jeremy1026 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I get more or less the same items from the grocery store every week. My grocery store shows me purchases going back a year. 3/9/25 - 45 items - $178.98 3/15/25 - 40 items - $187.13 3/22/25 - 59 items - $315.29 3/29/25 - 45 items - $131.36 ... 2/14/25 - 48 items - $238.15 2/21/25 - 17 items - $117.49 (used $45 in coupons from store loyalty points, actual cost $162.49) 2/28/25 - 27 items - $165.27 My grocery bill definitely is feeling it, now is it 100% tariffs, probably not. But research points to it being some what related to tariffs [1,2,3] You'll notice in the most recent shops, I have been trying to skip the non-essentials when possible to keep my bill lower. I don't have any other regular purchases with history to look back on. It's not like I replace all my consumer electronics every 6 months-1 year. Closest thing that I have to consistent historical data is 3D printer filament, which has gone from $15.99 to $16.99 on Amazon for my brand of choice from April 2025 to my most recent order last week. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/blog/trump-tariffs-food-prices/ [2] https://budgetlab.yale.edu/research/state-us-tariffs-june-17... [3] https://www.edelmanfinancialengines.com/education/life-event... |
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| ▲ | dweinus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is no probably; we not getting our money back. In fact, any of the money that has been spent in the meantime (say to make up for wealthy tax cuts or to expand military or border funding) we get to pay again! |
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| ▲ | wombatpm 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| SCOTUS was told no injunction was warranted because IF the tariffs were found to be improper, the money could be returned-no harm. Now the government says they can’t refund because the amount of money is too big and they already spent it. |
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| ▲ | bickfordb a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The latest temporary tariffs are also likely illegal. |
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| ▲ | teeray a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Justice delayed is justice denied. There should be an express lane for litigation similar actions like this. | | |
| ▲ | stefan_ 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is an express lane, it's reserved for the government appealing cases, in which any and all injunctions are halted because the court has unilaterally decided to interpret "not being able to do illegal shit" as "great harm" while there is no harm in sending people to torture prisons abroad on the flimsiest of evidence. They sure took their time with this one. | |
| ▲ | vuln a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | we can’t even do that with violent criminal let alone white color criminals. lol | | |
| ▲ | amenhotep 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is a silly point. Courts aren't sitting around umming and ahhing about whether they should issue an arrest warrant to get x violent criminal off the streets, the system wastes minimal time in apprehending them and putting them in jail. At THAT point things slow to a crawl - because there's no longer the urgent incentive to act to prevent further harm. Whereas in these cases the government is potentially harming the entire public every single day that the courts don't act. |
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| ▲ | NetMageSCW a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I thought those were on very solid ground commonly used by past administrations? | | |
| ▲ | bickfordb a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Section 122 has rarely been used. State AGs announced lawsuits today: https://www.cnbc.com/2026/03/05/trump-tariffs-state-ags-sue-... | |
| ▲ | loeg 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Section 122 is only supposed to be applied to address balance of payments deficits, which are essentially zero with floating currency exchange rates (since the 70s). They're also limited to 15% and 150 days. (Judges will not look favorably on Trump trying to just restart the same tariff for another 150 days after the first expire.) | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I thought those were on very solid ground commonly used by past administrations No, Section 122 tariffs have never been used prior to Trump turning to them after the Supreme Court decision striking down the IEEPA tariffs, and, the states suing the Administration argue, the explicit sole statutory purpose for which they were allowed in the 1974 law creating the power can only possible to exist under a fixed-exchange-rate monetary system, which the US has not had since 1976. |
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| ▲ | badgersnake a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well if it works, they’re gonna keep doing it. |
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| ▲ | wutwutwat a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Still waiting on getting those freedoms back that we temporarily gave up after 9/11 via the patriot act so we could get the baddies. Don't hold your breath for either to be given back. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Congress needs to step up and take its power back from the executive. There was no good reason for the President to have this power in the first place. Why the hell do we have emergency powers to impose tariffs? Is there going to be a fleet of nuclear-armed bombers headed for the USA and the only way to stop them is to impose tariffs? It's ridiculous. Congress has been gradually handing their power over to the executive for decades. For decades, people have been warning that this was setting up for major abuse if you got a particularly bad president. Well, guess what.... |
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| ▲ | endemic a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Congress needs to step up and take its power back from the executive. Won't happen with this administration at least; the expectation being that unless you are a yes-man, you'll be denounced as "not loyal" and voted out. | |
| ▲ | doom2 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Just wait until the next Democratic president is elected. The current crop of Republicans will suddenly remember that Congress can exercise this power. |
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| ▲ | rootusrootus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I suspect that money is involved. We’re becoming numb to it. |
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| ▲ | hypercube33 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Two things is that we won't get money back and price of stuff is still going up. add on to that the companies getting refunds are pocketing the money. |
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| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is no excuse for how long it took the Supreme court to decide this very obvious case. |
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| ▲ | jasondigitized a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like Class Action lawsuits for $100 please |
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| ▲ | oofbey a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In terms of policy this is a truly massive gift to importing companies. They had to pay massive amounts of tax to import goods. Analysis shows most (but not all) of the tariffs were passed on down the line to consumers of the imported goods or their derivatives. And now they get it all back! If they can figure out the paperwork. Which I expect most will, because if you import things and pay tariffs, you have to be good at govt paperwork. Wow. I don’t know what this means. But it’s a huge windfall to a very specific horizontal slice of the economy - cutting across industries and supply chains. Just whoever happened to be doing the importing gets a giant present. So bizarre. Economists will write about this case study for decades. |
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| ▲ | empath75 a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I hate the tariffs, but giving the money back to the corporations would be absolutely _grotesque_. Every company that collected a tariff fee needs to refund it as they collect their own refunds. |
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