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NearAP 8 hours ago

I think the 2 laptops you mentioned are targeting different markets.

The Surface Laptop you linked to is - 16GB of RAM and 512GB of Storage (no 8GB of RAM option)

The $599 Mac Neo is 8GB of RAM and 256GB of Storage. It doesn't have a 16GB RAM option but a 512GB storage option is $699.

8GB RAM seems to me to be targeting folks who don't run a lot of local apps or multiple big apps

kettlecorn 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At this point I think few people really will care about that spec difference.

The accumulated brand trust of Apple, and the negative brand trust of Microsoft outweighs the numbers.

Even many technically savvy people believe Apple can deliver a higher quality computing experience with 8GB of RAM than Microsoft can with 16GB, and they're often correct.

thewebguyd 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The accumulated brand trust of Apple

This is an important thing to Apple, and Apple users know it. They would not have put out this macbook if it was going to be a subpar experience. Microsoft has no such qualms about OEMs shipping an underspecced disaster of a beater laptop (see Vista).

You can (generally) but any Apple product and know you are going to get something quality and a good experience, even from the base/budget models. They don't really have any "bad" products.

leptons 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>They would not have put out this macbook if it was going to be a subpar experience.

"You're holding it wrong" - Steve Jobs

Apple has put out plenty of subpar experiences in the past, and there's no reason they wouldn't do it in the future.

kettlecorn 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Apple certainly puts out experiences that leave much to be improved but to be pedantic the word 'subpar' implies below the 'par'. If 'par' is set by Microsoft then Apple easily clears it.

Nowadays Chromebooks offer more design competition for Apple, and even historically Linux distros have had more ideas for Apple to learn from than Microsoft.

thewebguyd 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And despite antenna gate, the iPhone 4 was still the best smartphone of that year and leaps ahead of it's closest competition (the Galaxy S), and remained the #1 best selling smartphone at year after launch

leptons 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You can only buy hardware that runs Apple software from Apple, but Android mobile devices far outsell Apple devices and always have. Apple is and always has been a minority player in the overall smartphone market (and desktop/laptop as well).

Globally, Android has had about 70% to 75% market share, and Apple has always had a much smaller slice of the total. iPhones are not as popular as you seem to think they are. You don't have to believe me, the data proves it:

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide/...

thewebguyd an hour ago | parent [-]

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the iPhone 4 was the single most purchased smartphone model in the US between 2010 and 2011 (during antenna gate that we are talking about).

Android has the majority share because "Android" is anything from a $100 piece of junk to a $1200 phone. If you look at only the premium market, Apple holds ~70% market share.

Despite antenna gate, it still sold plenty, which proves the point about brand trust that the thread was about.

If the brand equity wasn't there, the Galaxy S would have out sold the iPhone 4, but it didn't, it sold half as much.

alwillis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> "You're holding it wrong" - Steve Jobs

> Apple has put out plenty of subpar experiences in the past, and there's no reason they wouldn't do it in the future.

Come on—that was 16 years ago! Y'all gotta let some things go after a while.

leptons 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Okay... how about, Apple put the charging port on a wireless mouse on the bottom of the mouse.

I could go on, and on...

alwillis an hour ago | parent [-]

As they say "past performance does not guarantee future results".

That version of the Magic Mouse is also over 10 years old…

1attice 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Vision Pro and butterfly keyboard would like a word

thewebguyd 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Fair enough, although I wouldn't call the vision pro a bad product necessarily, it's just too expensive for what it is.

1attice 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, you see them on the subway all the time

pjmlp 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In laptop keyboards, UI refactorings, or Siri?

Where is exactly the premium quality?

kettlecorn 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Apple's UX quality, design focus, and respect for its customers is higher quality and more consistent than Microsoft's.

Apple is also imperfect and I feel leaves tremendous room to do better, but they are still much better than Microsoft.

Take one topic: UI refactorings. Apple has rolled out disruptive UI refactorings but they've also rolled them out consistently across products and throughout their software.

Microsoft did not have the internal leadership discipline or commitment to design to ever get their products in alignment around a design language. It is common on Windows that the included software all uses different design toolkits and design paradigms. For years Windows was infamous for having multiple ways to configure even common settings, often requiring falling back to the old version, because they were not able to ship a unified UX.

Microsoft routinely has 'UX design scandals' of various sorts with dark patterns forcing Microsoft's preference on users. Apple has those as well, but far less often.

akdev1l 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

MacOS is crazy efficient and can overcommit quite a lot.

I used an M1 Pro for a couple years to work. 8GB of ram but routinely using 12GB including swap.

Now, I couldn’t keep slack and outlook open so there were limitations but I was able to work. People are underestimating the usefulness of 8GB of RAM.

I guess it is also worth saying that I do my work by connecting to a remote server where I do the actual development and everything else. The Mac itself being a web browser and ssh machine

MrDrMcCoy 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Not being able to keep Slack and Outlook open at the same time seems like a pretty significant productivity hindrance to me. 8GB RAM is truly pathetic in 2022.

deepthaw 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m freaking out the equivalent of mutt and irc require more than 8GB of RAM to run simultaneously.

What are modern operating systems and applications doing?

astrange 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can post images in Slack and use text formatting. Those are things that use memory.

abujazar 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sloppy memory management is what uses memory. But those apps are in a class of their own, along with Electron apps.

jshen 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Gifs. I'm only half joking.

akdev1l 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I used outlook on the browser when needed and slack was open most of the time

I also had around 200 tabs open on the regular

Now I wouldn’t tell you it was a good experience because it wasn’t. But it was usable even pushing the hardware to the max.

briandear 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not having to use outlook is a feature not a bug.

Kirby64 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Children don't have Slack and Outlook open. Gmail in a web browser and Discord, maybe. My old M1 Air works just fine for productivity workloads, and has for years.

vunderba 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Is Slack that much worse of a memory hog than Discord? Aren’t they both built on electron?

Kirby64 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not sure about slack vs discord, but browser Gmail is almost certainly less memory hungry than Outlook. And that’s probably enough of a difference by itself.

alwillis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can make a pretty good electron app or one that kinda sucks. Slack is in the latter category.

vunderba 3 hours ago | parent [-]

VS Code (or rather VSCodium in my case) is also electron based but it's been relatively snappy in my experience - though I don't use a lot of third party plugins.

alwillis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Say what you will about Microsoft but the performance of VS Code is really good.

Schiendelman 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you actually have a problem with Slack and Outlook open at the same time on an Apple Silicon Mac with 8GB of memory? Or are you assuming?

MrDrMcCoy 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I was replying to someone that made that claim from apparent experience.

Izikiel43 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Not being able to keep Slack and Outlook open at the same time seems like a pretty significant productivity hindrance to me. 8GB RAM is truly pathetic in 2022.

I read this as how bad software quality has gone down, that a mail program and a chat program don't fit in 8GB of RAM.

carlosjobim 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nobody except people on HN cares about RAM. People care about what you can actually do with the machine. The spec numbers are nothing more than numbers when a computer never works as it is supposed to. It's like having a 500HP car, but it can actually not drive.

prmph 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Indeed, 8gb is plenty, even for serious work and coding, if you use the machine well.

If you think getting more and more RAM solves every performance problem, I've got news for you: People are having beachballs on machines with 32GB and more.

garbageman 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I agree generally that on Mac you can 'get by' with 8gb and for the target audience on this, and how they'll likely use it - it's totally acceptable.

But if it's for serious work, this is not the device. 'Managing' the software to 'use the machine well' to get serious work done is unacceptable in 2026. It needs to just work and disappear into the background. I have enough to think about and micro managing the software running is out of the question.

prmph 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> 'Managing' the software to 'use the machine well' to get serious work done is unacceptable in 2026

I agree, I just don't think the rush to get more and more RAM and storage is the root of the problem.

Why on earth does a browser need more than 10 GB to display web pages?? Why does macOS keep piling/hiding trash that should be deleted in "System Data"?

And, if you need to keep device backups, put them on an external drive; that's what those things are for.

astrange 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Web pages are very complicated and there's no pressure on people to make less complicated ones, nor is there any way there could be pressure on them.

Images, complicated CSS, JavaScript ads, they can all use lots of memory!

carlosjobim 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It depends on how you define "serious work". Is it to get the best results possible, or is it to tax a computer as much as possible? Programmers would usually answer the latter, while users would answer the former.

That's why programmers put their stuff into Kubernetes which go into virtual machines, which go into eleven layers of javascript abstraction which go into twelve thousand node packages, which go into something else to end up with something with very basic functionality, which usually doesn't work very well.

Other pro computer users are focused on the results, so they use professional office software, calendars, communications, photo and video editing and effects, photo-realistic 3D editors, studio level audio and music editing software. All which lives perfectly fine on 8GB of RAM.

vunderba 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As always - it depends on the kind of ostensible "serious work" you do.

I've got 32GB and often work with legacy .NET Winform/WPF applications on a Macbook. That means spinning up a Windows 11 ARM distro virtual machine and running Microsoft Visual Studio. The VM has 8GB of ram allocated to it, and based on qemu-system memory pressure, it hovers around ~4-6GB of that.

I also do a lot of colorgrading and video editing with longform 4K videos using Davinci Resolve - scrubbing in an uncompressed format would absolutely thrash the hell out of your swap with only 8GB.

AlotOfReading 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Add much as I'd like to be more efficient, modern toolchains absolutely need these kinds of numbers for big projects. My 48GB system will OOM trying to link clang unless I'm extremely careful. The 64GB system is a bit more forgiving, but I still have to go for lunch while it's working.

Sure, might be ambitious to do that sort of workload on a budget conscious laptop, but it'd be nice y'know?

jshen 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you're trying to link clang, this laptop is not for you. It's for people that would consider a chromebook for their use case.

prmph 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Usually the problem then is more fundamental.

Rust exists. If you insist on using (or need to use) languages with horrendous build architectures like C++, then you probably need a proper build server then anyways.

I don't have XCode on my Macbook and have resolved not to do iOS development any time soon (although ideally I'd have wanted to dabble in it sometimes), because I've accepted I don't want to run the rat race of always needing beefier and beefier machines to keep up with Apple's bad habit of bloating it up for each version up for no good reason.

I don't run local LLMs on my machine, since even with 100s of GB of RAM, I hear the performance you can expect is abysmal.

I think it is a good idea to put pressure on hardware and software vendors to make their products more efficient.

AlotOfReading 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Rust has similar issues with memory usage during linking as C++.

I can use a build server when I want one, but that's not always appropriate. Local builds are useful.

restes 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>People are having beachballs on machines with 32GB and more.

Well, sure, because the beachball means the main thread is hung, and that can happen for many reasons unrelated to memory pressure.

Bluecobra 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I literally just ran into this myself with my spouse. She is ready to upgrade her M1 MacBook Air and thinks she doesn’t need more RAM because everything is “in the cloud”. Hopefully 8GB is enough RAM for the next 5 years or so...

benterix 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Nobody except people on HN cares about RAM.

They might not care but they do call us saying "Oh you are good with computers, why is my computer so slow?"

carlosjobim 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Tell them to buy a Mac and they'll never have to call for tech support again.

abrouwers 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My spouse bought a mac and asks me (mostly a linux user, and I'm happy to help) for support somewhat regularly (mostly recently, for a tahoe upgrade). It's not the golden unicorn people paint it to be. 8gb is insane in 2026.

swiftcoder 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It may not be a golden unicorn, but I find it is quite a lot better than providing support for the Windows laptops they used to buy from random department stores on rock-bottom sales... Nothing quite like a $200 PC laptop stocked with OEM bloatware

deepthaw 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Until 1/3 of your hard drive space is taken up by weird cache stuff that MacOS doesn’t explain nor offer a straightforward way to clean up.

astrange 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If it's cache it gets automatically deleted. If it doesn't get automatically deleted it's not a cache and is a bug.

olnluis 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I like my MB Pro but it has serious audio and external display issues. I've had to remove spotlight indexing to prevent obscure OOM issues. One time I woke up to open my laptop and find it's screen cracked for no apparent reason. Since I couldn't prove it wasn't my fault I was charged for the repair anyway and I'm grateful to myself that I had AC+ because I might have as well just bought another laptop if not. At the end of the day, it's still just a computer.

spiderfarmer 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is it hard for you to imagine that people who'll buy the Neo don't care about specs at all?

I mean, look at the colors!