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tyre 2 hours ago

So my cofounder was talking to Stripe about an acquihire (this was after I’d left.) As part of it, he had to do a systems design interview.

He got the prompt, asked questions about throughput requirements (etc.), and said, “okay, I’d put it all in Postgres.” He was correct! Postgres could more than handle the load.

He gets a call from Patrick Collison saying that he failed the interview and asking what happened. He explained himself, to which Patrick said, okay, well yes you might be right but you also understand what the point of the interview is.

They made him do it again and he passed.

wongarsu 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If the point of the interview was to test if the candidate can design something that can handle google-scale problems then maybe the interviewer shouldn't state throughput and availability requirements that can be satisfied by postgres

jghn an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It's both.

As a hiring manager I've had situations like this arise because there was a gap in my plan and I didn't realize it. When those come up, we thank them for their cleverness, apologize to the candidate, reframe the situation, and give them another shot.

But also sometimes I leave intentional ambiguity in the plan. Part of the goal is to see if they have a degree of common sense commensurate to their level. If they're interviewing for a high level position, I'd expect them to be able to spot silly flaws and push back that perhaps the whole problem needs rethinking. And of course, I also expect them to know the brute force solution as well. Do they only know one? Both? Let's fine out.

Aurornis an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Postgres might have been a perfect answer, but the candidate needs to explain why and how.

The purpose of the interview is for the candidate to demonstrate their thought process and ability to communicate it. “Just use Postgres” doesn’t do that.

This would be more obvious if it was a LeetCode problem and the candidate just regurgitated an algorithm from memory without explaining anything about it. Yeah it’s technically the right answer but the interviewer can’t tell if you actually understand what you’re talking about or if you just happened to memorize and answer that works.

Interviews are about communication and demonstrating thought process.

wadadadad an hour ago | parent | next [-]

100% interviews are about communication and demonstrating thought process; after going through some rounds of interviewing candidates myself, any candidate who can adequately explain what they're thinking and how they arrive at their conclusions will be able to demonstrate their skills much more thoroughly than 'just use Postgres'.

That being said, it's also on the ones giving the interviews to push the candidates and ensure that they really are receiving the applicants best. The interviewers don't want to miss potentially great candidates (interviews are hard and nerve-wracking, and engineers aren't known for their social performance), and thus sometimes need to help nudge the candidates in the right direction.

Aurornis 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

Fully agreed on the point that interviewers should prompt and push candidates in the right direction.

The best thing someone can do to learn how to perform well in interviews is to sit on the other side where you’re interviewing candidates. Some candidates will get stuck on arguing some irrelevant point or trying to fight against the interview question for too long in an interview. Once you see how much it hurts the interview process you learn to never do it yourself.

jimmydddd an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I went to law school and a few of us students were engineers. For our first set of essay exams, the professors all instructed us to "just answer the legal question" and not include extra analysis. After the exam, many of the engineers didn't do well because the professors *actually* wanted you to weave the whole sylabus into your answer (i.e., discuss hypotheticals that were not actually part of the question asked), not just answer the question. After that, we were fine.

rawgabbit 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

This is also what I learned the hard way. In many situations the customer doesn’t say what they really want. There are a lot of reasons why. I usually have to write down a lot of hypotheticals. If X is the primary concern, we should do Y. If U is the issue, we should do V.

Folcon 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel like if that's the thought process, that should be stated up front

There's a ton of incredibly talented neurodivergent people in our ecosystem who would trip up on that question just because of how it's framed

Because how is the interviewee to know if you're testing for the technically sophisticated answer no one in their right mind would ever write or the pragmatic one?

wreath 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I dont even think you need to be neurodivergent or anything to answer this question like the parent’s cofounder did.

From one side, we call ourselves problem solvers, on the other hand we are not satisfied with simple solutions to these problems. If im interviewing for a job, i should be expected to behave and solve hypothetical problems the way id do it on the job. If that screws up your script, you probably suck at hiring and communicating your expectations.

wongarsu 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or just add a couple zeros to all the requirements until postgres is a worse solution than whatever the interviewer envisions. Isn't that the point of stating throughput requirements?

mrweasel an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's probably more about your mindset, than about being neurodivergent vs. neurotypical. If you care more about maintainability and operations, there's a whole host of solutions you'd never built.

anthonypasq 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

if your brain short-circuits at ambiguity, or you're completely incapable of understanding intent and you take everything literally, that is a negative hiring signal.

twodave 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is just an indication that it's a poor interviewing technique. If you ask a question expecting the answer to be predictable then you had better cover all possible ambiguity in leading the candidate to the answer you want to hear. But then you're no longer asking the candidate to be creative, are you? As an interviewer I might be more inclined to allow such an answer and then follow up with questions of my own to test the limits of the candidate's knowledge of and confidence in Postgres as a technical choice for serving all the different constraints of the problem space. This way either I discover how well-reasoned the answer is or else (for a good candidate) it prompts them to adjust the design to better fit the problem. In no case would I expect they need to fit their answer into some key and then scold them for not playing along with my imaginary game.

fatnoah 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> He got the prompt, asked questions about throughput requirements (etc.), and said, “okay, I’d put it all in Postgres.” He was correct! Postgres could more than handle the load.

I had this happen in a Google interview. I did back of the envelope math on data size and request volume and everything (4 million daily events, spread across a similar number of buckets) and very little was required beyond that to meet performance, reliability, and time/space complexity requirements. Most of the interview was the interviewer asking "what about" questions, me explaining how the simple design handled that, and the interviewer agreeing. I passed, but with "leans" vs. "strong" feedback.

Gooblebrai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They made him do it again and he passed

I'd assume that if he got a call from Patrick himself and a second opportunity to get interviewed, that's already a cue for interviewers to pass him regardless of what he says?

coldtrait 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

That was what I felt too. Why even need an interview for an acquihire when you have a direct link with the founder/CEO?

eptcyka 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they don’t want to hear the correct answer, let them modify the question to exclude postgres answers. Interviews are a 2 way street, you will miss out on great candidates by being this stupid.

lo_zamoyski 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

On the one hand, interviewers can suck. They can be uninterested in understanding and embrace instead the role of a trigger-happy interrogator looking not for a good response - something that may very well require effort and considering new ideas on the part of the interviewer - but an excuse to cross you off the list. The interview begins to look like a game of "Guess what I'm thinking". Interviews should simulate a colleague asking you for help.

On the other hand, interviewees can give poor answers with no explanation. The interviewer should press for an explanation in those cases, of course, but perhaps some are trying to see if the interviewee instinctively provides at least some basic rationale behind the answer without having to be prodded each time, in which case it is a matter of communication habits and skills. Communication is essential, and it is under-emphasized and under-taught in so-called 'STEM' curricula.

smallnix 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> you also understand what the point of the interview is

Exactly, it's also a test of ability to conform. Especially useful to weed out rogue behavior picked up in startups.

jkubicek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No, the point was to demonstrate how you’d design a complex system.

If a valid answer was “just use Postgres” then it just wasn’t a very good interview question.

In real life, the answer almost certainly would be “just use Postgres” and everyone would be happy.

chrisandchris 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No, it was a perfectly fine question IMHO. it is a broken incentive - it is expected that you design complex systems regardless whether they are useful or not. Try to interview for the role you have to fill, nor for a role you a dreaming you would love to have whenever you're Google2.

If the interview wants you to think about stuff that never happens in your role, I think it is a sign that in your role, you're expected to solve the problems like in the interview.

pjmlp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is the part I would say thank you, and pass on the opportunity.

And yes, I have done this on a second Google interview about 15 years ago.

badosu 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sorry, I didn't get it. What was the 'right' answer?

munchbunny 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It depends on the situation.

Sometimes you just have a bad interviewer who is looking for something specific from you but isn't telling you. If you're experienced in these interviews, you catch the signs and adapt by asking questions to suss out which direction the interviewer wants to take it.

Sometimes your answer is plausible but the interviewer wants to see you justify it. Sometimes your answer is wrong but the interviewer wants to see if you can reason your way through it, and maybe come up with an alternative.

If you're junior/inexperienced, it's often hard to tell and it'll feel arbitrary/unfair, and unfortunately that's just how it goes. As a more senior/experienced candidate, you can often figure out which situation you're in by asking questions to feel out the interviewer and then try to pivot during the interview, though it still takes valuable minutes out of the interview that you could have otherwise spent showing your competence.

wccrawford an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Postgres, because..."

They want a conversation to see how you think, not an actual answer.

Which is stupid, because they asked a question that the person didn't need to think to answer. So they didn't get to see them think.

an hour ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
sejje 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

nosql on serverless

koakuma-chan 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

distributed virtual abstract factory

marcosdumay an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, yes, doing the interview again is the right choice.

MrBuddyCasino 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They made him do it again and he passed.

I would hire the "just use postgres" dude in a heartbeat without re-testing, if the numbers made sense, and perhaps give a stern talking-to to the interviewers. But then again I'm not a unicorn founder, so what do I know.

lucianbr an hour ago | parent | next [-]

My read of the story is that the decision to hire was already made, the interviewer goofed but was then set on the right track by his boss.

PKop 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Eh, it's a good answer and shows good instincts, but they still want to know how he would design a system if one was necessary. There's no need to be ridiculous about any of this from either perspective, which is why it should never have been a "fail" without the original interviewer simply saying "That's a solid answer now tell me what you would do if you had to build something new". I mean look how much time he wasted for everyone including his own CEO by being stubborn about it.

MrBuddyCasino an hour ago | parent [-]

If the numbers can be satisfied by a Postgres then thats the correct answer. The interviewers fucked up, because they sized the problem wrongly.

This is the same issue that was prevalent when the industry switched from HDD to SSD: some system design questions suddenly became trivial, because the IOPS went up by magnitudes. This is not a failure of the interviewees, who correctly went with the times, but a failure of the interviewers.

LPisGood an hour ago | parent | next [-]

What kinds of system design questions got destroyed?

danenania 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The correct answer is “Postgres would handle it, but if it needed to scale even higher, I’d…”

The point of a system design interview is to have a discussion that examines possibilities and tradeoffs.

eunos 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> okay, well yes you might be right but you also understand what the point of the interview is.

So the point is? I honestly dont understand.

praptak an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The point is the interviewers are sometimes obtuse.

Sometimes the point of the interview is to see if the candidate knows an existing solution and "just use postgres" is the good answer. Sometimes it's to test the technical chops and pretending postgres doesn't exist is the point.

The candidate shouldn't be expected to always guess right, unless the position says "a psychic". The interviewer should notice if the candidate is solving the wrong kind of problem and nudge them in the right direction instead of punishing the candidate for the wrong guess.

LandR 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The point isnt to give a simple answer, even if it's a correct answer. The point is show how much you know and how smart you are.

The question is framed to you as a way for you to show you know x, y and z and talk about x, y and z.

Even if a valid solution is just do a, that's great. But the interviewer has no idea if you actually know about x ,y and z do they ?

lucianbr an hour ago | parent [-]

> The point is show how much you know and how smart you are.

I like that this sentence can be read both as a productive, well-meaning view on interviews, as well as a highly cynical one.

Also makes me wonder if the person will keep showing how much they know and how smart they are after they are hired, and if that is a good thing.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In an interview you need to explain your thought process and demonstrate that you’re making an informed decision with supporting evidence.

Saying “just use Postgres” and then providing no explanation for why you believe Postgres is sufficient for the job, a general explanation of what type of hardware and architecture you’d use, and other details is not answering the question.

flubijeq an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The best way to get promoted at stripe is just self-marketing and social manipulation. Good engineers are leaving meanwhile tecnical leadership is being replaced with designers and marketers. Internal performance metrics are heavily manipulated as well. Patrick has completely surrounded himself with extreme sycophants at this point - he has no idea what is actually going on in his company beyond curated metrics produced by manipulative sociopaths.

getnormality 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

Patrick Collison sounds like a lovely, trusting, scientifically-minded man who needs to learn the constructive power of destruction. The power of rage and contempt for bad solutions and bad communication (regardless of intent).

With a smiley face front-end, of course. Wouldn't want to seem not-nice!

anal_reactor 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I realized that my manager really confuses complexity with robustness. Case in point: we have a very complicated script that runs at deployment time to determine the address of the database. It's been the source of a few incidents - database wasn't discovered because it was restarting and the script passed an empty string instead of stopping the deployment, script failed because of python update and empty configuration was passed, shit like that. I've been arguing "bro why can't we make terraform create a config file with all the addresses that is directly passed to the app at deployment, or better yet, just copy-paste the database addresses into a file in the repo because we change something there once a year at maximum" but my manager took it as a sign of incompetence and my inability to understand complex systems.

I feel like lots of people just follow the happy path and don't understand that complexity incurs real cost.

PKop 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's crazy the original interviewer allowed it to come to this which sounds like a waste of time for everyone involved, instead of simply saying; "Very good that is a legitimate solution to the problem. Now let's pretend you have to build something new, what would you do?"

Why on Earth did the company have to be so willingly obtuse and stupid about it including what sounds like the CEO (well at least he gave him another shot, but there doesn't need to be implicit assumptions about the "point of the interview", just come out and address it head on explicitly.)

renegade-otter 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I always find it funny that "engineers" straight out of school who barely know how to create a PR are expected to "ace" planet scale design questions. It's. Just. So. Dumb.

yieldcrv 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

“There’s no right answer we just want to see how you think” is gaslighting if there is a right answer and wrong answer.

This should go straight to the DOL, EEOC, FTC and other bodies as some form of abusive labor practice that excises it from the employment process under threat of economic sanctions